Rarity Zero!

Something else I came up with that seems to make a lot of sense is to have many creatures who are Rarity 0. Take the 2/2 Standard Human with one build and then subtract three build points. You end up with something approaching a Goblin. I think that this is the way to go with creatures that are suppose to suck. Also, since they are Rarity Zero, you get no Experience Points for defeating them (unless the GM decides to give you Role Play points or there are just a ton of them etc.).

I think we should have one rulebook. That way if you can find a rulebook you can find what you need, instead of having to find the right rulebook. Also, as I recall, you made separate rulebooks so that not everybody would have access to all the GM information, but that ended up being the only book we could ever find.

Did you already buy the stones for the death bag? If not I think they should be drastically different colors so that you can tell easier, especially if you are in low light.

Chi strike is way too cool.
For clarity: Giant strength says it adds to your improved strength. Does that mean you still factor in the +1 for melee or not?
Hide and stealth seem cool, but I think that they may bee a bit too cool when you take into account that a lot of thieves are hobbits and gnomes can hide/stealth instantly. I think that we should tone down rouge and then play test it with the better hide/stealth, but I don’t think we should put this in the rulebook until we have play tested it enough.

“Strength 0: Can only use items 1 foot in length, or two foot two handed.” I’m assuming that this means that they can only use a one handed two foot weapon if they use it in two hands, not that they can use two handed weapons that are up to two feet long since size one can’t even do that. To make it clearer I think it should be worded “Strength 0: Can only use items 1 foot in length, or two foot with two hands.”

The armor doesn’t make sense.

Orks seem pretty common to me. I think a lot of the monsters work how they are and if you do want to revise them off of the mutant chart I would suggest doing a couple and seeing if they are actually balanced like that.

Rarity zero seems okay for some things, as long as no PC can ever be rarity zero. Even PC goblins should be rarity one.

Hello all FanWar players:

I had several long discussions with Cora about these changes on out trip down to Palo Alto, and we had similar concerns. Here are our fixes so far.

Chi Strike: We tried a million different ideas and they all boiled down to the issue of it you spend a mana, it should count for something. Our favorite is as follows:
Add to Chi Stike it can only be used in Duels (this keeps it from being abused by characters with a Magic item of Chi Strike).
Change it to read, "Cost: 1 Mana. Call Chi Strike X mana drain, instead of dealing any damage you drain an amount of mana equal to your current mana level if you would have damaged them." This would mean if you charge yourself up it is cool, but each time you try it, it gets less cool. Also, since it isn't AV=0 or UB, it is risky but not too costly.

Hide and Stealth: Size zero things can't run anyway, so the instand stealth it not a big problem. Hobbits are the ones to worry about, but they still have to be high enough level to get Stealth, and they have to be in shadow, etc. I don't see it as being a big problem but I agree with Nell, we need to playtest it more.

Improved and Giant Strength: Cora and I went over this one extensively. We finally came up with a very elegant solution that I like very much because it is more of a system then a static rule.
Improved Strength will Read: + 3 to Strength Rating.
Giant Stength will Read: Doubles your Strength Rating. You can throw Boulder which are UB.
We then just add a few elements to the Strength Rating chart and are done. For every 5 steps up the Strength Rating Chart, you add +1 damage to each hand. So 0-4 there is no add. 5-9 is a plus 1 in each hand. 10-14 is +2 in each hand, etc. That's it. Simple. But if you consider how all these effects stack, you will see that they make a great damage adding system without the need for "1/2 your size" "1/4 your size" etc. etc. Also, it means that most Knights will already get Armor Piercing because their Strength will go above 10 (so we can replace Armor Piercing with a variation on Trample).

More, later, I have to run.

Hello All FanWar Players:

I have a proposed fix for Boulders which will make the final transition to a Strength Rating system complete. Currently, Giant Strength reads "Double your Strength Rating. Can throw boulders which are UB." I would like to remove the throwing boulders and make that a function of your strength instead of an effect of Giant Strength. My proposed fix is to state that strength 8 and up can throw boulders which are UB. Consider that a Hobbit with Improved and Giant Strength would have an 8 Strength and thus be able to throw Boulders, so not much has really changed except that I can streamline the Monster Section. I can list SIZE with a slash, for example,
Storm Giant
ROR 30 HP 20 MANA 10 AV 0 SIZE 8/22 RARITY 8

Thus, monsters would not even have to have Giant Strength listed as etc. I can simply list a Strength Rating next to their size. This make a skill like Giant Strength make sense, since why does a Giant need to have the skill of Giant Strength, they're a Giant after all, aren't they just that strong. This way, the skill just gives players comparable Strength Ratings instead of being a specific skill in and of itself.

Thoughts?

Hello all:

I just had an insight into STR that I think might be really nice but tell me if I am wrong on this one. It seems to me that we are creating super high STR ratings and then taking fractions of them to get damage numbers. That is like multiplying something and then dividing it. Why not skip the two steps and stay where you were. Here is my new proposition, tell me if it make sense.
Change the Strength Rating Scale to be more in scale with current sizes: Then make Improved Strength and Giant Strength give very small bonuses (like +2 each), but because the whole scale is smaller, it is effectively the same, see below:
STR: 0-4 (as it is listed already, everything is the same)
STR 5: Can use Two Handed Weapons 1 handed.
STR 6: +1 damage in each hand.
STR 7: Armor Piercing
STR 8: Can throw Boulders & +1 damage in each hand
STR 9: AV=0
STR 10 +1 damage in each hand
Above STR 10 = +1 damage in each hand each point above 10.

Thoughts?

That looks pretty good. The only problem I have with it is that the only PC race that could throw boulders and deal +2 damage in each hand would be centaurs, which makes size 3 or under Knights a lot weaker.

Boulders:

Sorry about that, it was a typo. I was thinking about the previous post that pointed out that Hobbit could throw boulders if they were set at size 8 and then I didn't consider that when I made the changes. Here is my proposed fix. I don't think we need so many different effects at different levels. I think a smoother system like the one I have in the book right now is ideal for players to remember. This chart would read "Players deal +1 damage in both hands for every STR point over 5 they have (1/2 that in each hand)." I don't think we really need a straight AV=0 effect because Armor Piercing gets better the more damage you deal, so adding a level at which you get AV=0 seem redundant. Make Improved Strength +2 and Giant Strength a + 2 to Improved Strength (so you have to have Improved to get Giant Strength).
STR: 0-4 (as it is listed already, everything is the same)
STR 5: Can use Two Handed Weapons 1 handed. Armor Piercing
STR 6: Can throw Boulders (this is the lowest Giant Size currently)
STR 7:
STR 8:
STR 9:
STR 10

As much as the other system is realistic, like Kill Zone, realism isn't exactly what we are after as much as simplicity and good game play.

Thoughts?

Christopher

i kinda miss it too.... Kill Zone forced people who were able to it it on purpose to make the moral decision either or not to kill someone with a single hit. but not having kill zone makes the battle aspect of the game a lot more intense and awesome.

The Problem with Hidden Skills:

I hate to admit it, but I don't think this STR system is going to work, and I think we are better off with the old Giant Strength and Improved Strength system and this is why. Using the STR system is realistic, but it hides these skills from players. If a player looks up a monster and sees that it is size 8, they have no clue what that means for damage, abilities, or anything. They will assume they are just big. In order to know how to play a size 8 creature, they will have to have an intimate knowledge of the size/strength chart, and what they get at each step etc. They will have to know that they deal +1 damage in each hand for each step above 5 which is very arbitrary rule. They get Armor Piercing but they again would have to look at the chart to know that. They can throw boulders, again, an unknown unless they look at the chart again. This means that players will constantly be needing to check the chart and when looking up monsters will have no clue of what they can do unless they remember to look that stuff up on the chart. I know new players and they don't do that. With the old system, they could see that they had Improved and Giant Strength and they were familiar with those skills from the class section so they knew immediately what they could do. As much as I hate to admit it, I think that creating a STR system is actually more complicated than the old Improved and Giant Strength System. A few things I would like to fix about Improved Strength and Giant Strength is that Giant Strength should be like Imporved Strength Elite, so that you don't have to consider what Improved did, once you have Giant Stength and that would be simpler (no extra damage from Improved, extra carry capacity from improved) and it would model a Strength increase system anyway. Here is my proposed fix.
Improved Strength: Can wield two handed weapons in one hand, + 2 to Carrying Capacity.
Giant Strength: Increases your Improved Strength. Now you also deal 1/2 your size (rounded up) in damage with each hand. You can throw boulders (size 3 rocks) which are UB. Your carrying capacity is now double your size instead of +2.

The only real change here to the old system is the doubling put at Giant Strength instead of Improved and that you deal 1/2 your size in each hand, instead of your total size in both. That just means that creatures of an odd size rating will be treated as bigger. A size 3 player will deal +2 in each hand. Then, when wielding something with both ands will get a +4 where as in the old system it would have been +3.

Feel free to disagree with me (politely) but make sure you sight your reasons and that they are good ones.

Christopher

I know you are going to hate this but...

Yes, this is another one of those ideas, so feel free to tell me I'm crazy, but not before you actually consider what I am about to suggest.

Wasn't the Journeymen class created to keep the game simple for beginners? The point was we wanted player to have to play for five levels before the game got really complicated on them and give them time to learn it before they had to choose a class. A few years ago I added a dozen or so Journeymen skills and that make Journeymen into a class all it's own and several players vetoed the idea and we got rid of all that mess.
I have been considering how complicated the Trades and Crafts have been getting with Trapmaker, Tinker, Healer, Priest, etc, etc. and it seems to me that we are headed in the same direction. I really like Trades and Crafts and I like the creative aspect of Other, because all players want to create new skills and it is the perfect place to put that energy instead of into "I want to make a new class!" which I always veto.
However, I always notice that players are overwhelmed by the twenty some odd choices of trade crafts they have to face at second level and they usually just get frustrated and confused, which is what we were trying to avoid, and then they forget to get Read Magic and Knockout, but continue to use those skills and we end up with illegal play due to confusion. We need to move Trade Crafts up in level so new characters don't have to worry about them for a while.
Idea # 1: I think it would help a lot to move Trade Crafts up to 4th lvl Journeymen. Yes I know that would cause all kind of problems, but before you say I am crazy consider that all it would do is cut everyones levels in Trade Crafts directly in half (since the cost of a level doubled). So many of the Trade Crafts are cooler than the Class Based ones anyway, this seems pretty fair to me. Consider that a I could put 6 exp into Track and be able to Track lvl 2 players, or I could put that 6 into Tracking Trade Craft and be able to track lvl 6 players. Yes Track improves over time on it's own like an investment, but it doesn't catch up until level 3 and even then any 3rd lvl Journeyman can do what a lvl 3 Ranger is doing with a class skill! Yes they stack, but it still seems like Track should be cooler. If Trade Crafts were lvl 4, then it would be no contest, Track would be way cooler, and Tracking would be fore non Rangers or for Rangers looking for a little boost. It also seems to me that with all the skills that stack you can lie, peacekeep and barter at levels way too high too fast. Am I wrong?
Idea #2: Trade Crafts could be moved up to level 5 and become static effects that read your total level. Thus, you only get Jester once, and then it just improves with every level you get on its own like Track does. The advantage to this is that it mimics the way the rest of the skills work which is intuitive to new players. I can't tell you how many times I ask players what level Tracker they are and they say "I'm level 3" but they mean their character is level 3. Tell me that is not confusing to new players. It's also a more fair system since you are only going up in levels in your Trade Crafts at the same rate and difficulty as players level up. It does seem pretty unfair that I can be a level 6 Journeymen and am able to Peacekeeper a level 10 player. The level of unfairness increase the higher level you get because you get 20 exp points and can suddenly jump 10 levels in Journeymen which is not proportional. The difference between a level 1 character and a level 10 character is not the same as the difference between a lvl 15 player and a level 25 player! But Trade Crafts treat them the same. A self graduating system would solve all that since you could only increase your level in the Trade Craft by actually increasing your level which is harder the higher level you are and then new players would not have to worry about Trade Crafts for a while and even when they do they will still just use their level for their skill with that Trade Craft.

Thoughts?
And yes, I know, it is crazy, but I am getting ready to print the book again and I want to examine all the crazy ideas in case one of them is a winner.

Christopher

Im not calling you crazy and i dont have a solution i also am not attacking you this is just my observation.

I have one huge problem with both of these new ideas. How are the charcters gonna feed themselves to get to level four or five to get a T&C to pay for life. Also humans and Dwarves start with a trade and craft and Hobbits start with two but everyone else have none. What are we gonna do about that. And with Idea two that is going to give people that are in a class a lot of exp that they didnt spend to put into their class stuff and make their trades and crafts better than they were. Idea two doesnt really work and idea one is a bit harsh but it still messes with the pay system. if idea one happens the cost of living should go down.

P.S.
I also dont really like the ideas from an experienced players point of view. Ive played alot of calsses hell almost all of them and the others dont interest me at all. I wanted Darral to be mainly a T&C character using outs from classes to help improve those T&C.

Well put Ryan, I like your points.

To play devils advocate a bit. Consider that you can easily spend your extra exp on getting more trade crafts. People would likely have a lot more T/C's but they would be less powerful.
I don't think surviving will be a problem. Elves already have this problem as do Centaurs and they usually use money from quests they do to survive. Most people make their money as a journeyman on quests anyway, not working as a level 2 Tracker. So I don't think it really matter that much.
I like how it makes Humans cooler (since they kind of suck) but it also makes Dwarf and Hobbit cooler, and they don't need it (though with the new size rules, maybe they do?).
Anyway, I am not saying any of these ideas are what we should do, I am merely fielding the idea so people think about it and consider what is best for new players and general game play. I don't really have any vested interest in this at all. I just want people to think about it consider if there is a better way to do it, or if what we have is best.
A third solution I thought of but didn't post because it seemed out of proportion is a exp/ point cost exactly the same as leveling up for T/C's. Consider if it cost 1 exp to get lvl 1 in a T/C. Then 2 for lvl 2, 3 for lvl 3, etc. That would mimic the level increase. Players could easily get lots of different trade crafts, but trying to become level 10 in a T/C would be a big investment. I like that that would reflect how rare a level 25 Herbalist should be, instead of every high level character being able to dump all their extra exp into Herbalist and being a master at it as well as a Multiclass Mage. Oh well, I don't really care. I just want people to consider this. If people don't have a problem with the huge discrepency in level advnacement for T/C effect verse class based effects and don't think it is too overwhelming for newbs, I am fine leaving it as it is.

Christopher

i think that changing it would kinda make it a little complicated and i think that its not to bad cause of you wanted to dump all that exp in t/c you dont get the really awsome of high mage or what not. and i think its ok right where it is but it is nice to have people thinking about it.

I'm still pondering the whole idea of changing trades and crafts, but had a second idea to weigh in along the side.
Chris are you wanting to change trades and crafts because you feel that its broken and characters are getting too much too fast- or are you changing it because its confusing
If you are changing it because it is confusing, don't we already sorta have a fix for that with the Mentor thing we were going to try?

did i miss something with this mentor thing??? or am i weetodded and just not thinking about what was said cause im tired???