Seeing as how, i'd rather not jump into this mess. I'm going to say my piece and leave it at that.

Points 1-2- i feel are correct, i do not like the stating that KZ is a chance/crit and the realism aspect just wants me to say lets try this for real then. Doug's point of hitting are choking are valid, i'd love to be able to slam a shield into an enemy to knock them back or drop them, but i can't to do so would be wrong and completely against the system.

Point 3- i really think it is a waste of time, people ARE going to forget and/or cheat the system to not die.

Point 4- is basically saying that the games finesse is gone. No longer do we aim for joints or other unarmored sections. The combat has become, hit the kill zone. It is pretty much the only place anyone aims anymore, {hacking aside}. Because of this, skills like +Hp are utterly useless unless one it taking boulders and missile weapons.

and finally point 5- We can't win, period. I have to agree with Doug, the world is so completely out of balance, nothing a player could do would matter. Kill Brodin? oh wookie... we still have the rest of the dark heroes, bone machine and three greater named deamons... pardon the comparison but what is our hope? we have no one ring item, even if we did, oh crap they heard about it and now Goblin has it. We are so utterly out gunned and fractured that we have no chance of winning. Players cannot compete against them, we don't have the levels. All they need to send against us is Xander and Ceto (sp? [sorry Ryan]) and we loose the whole party.

Chris, that isn’t simple. In fact, how does adding multiple mods simplify the system?
New players will not understand how -2 works and journeymen will die too much. Journeymen are the ones who get to -2 the most, and all they have is first aid and potions. -2 works the way it is and we shouldn't break something that works to try to fix something that's broken.
I was confused when I read this: “"How can I heal you?" and then they can gasp and point to their staff or hand you a scroll while coughing.” I thought, why would they point to their staff, how can that help. Then I remembered that in Arduin your staff can hold a spell that others can cast, not in fanwar. That’s were I think a lot of these ideas would work best, Arduin, not fanwar. If they were truly chance and if you could pause and look up rulings they would work, but table top can’t be translated into live action.

I also want to highlight some of the tings Doug said because I think he made some really good points that I fear will get ignored:
-Our combat system it fantasy NOT realism, and you can’t act like real life... I can't overpower my enemies, I can't rip the shield from their arm, I can't break their nose with my elbow, I can't put them into a choke hold and use them as a meat shield.
- LARP is intentionally not like real life because we want it to be fun
- Why are you all trying so hard and spending so much time to fix kill zone when it is intrinsically flawed, does not represent what it is supposed to, upsets game balance and makes long standing skills obsolete.

The other thing I have never understood about kill zone is how size doesn’t factor into it. The other week I was playing a sixth in a class, but more importantly, size three baddie who was kill zoned by a size zero lizard. Please (and I really mean please) explain this to me. How did a size zero creature catch up to a human, manage to reach a vital area (most of which are above the waist) and hit it while running (I’m short, I have trouble reaching things sometimes and I know running would only hinder my ability to reach high objects), and have the strength in it’s tiny body to hit hard enough to critically wound the person. Furthermore, why is it just as easy for a hobbit to crit a giant as a giant to crit a hobbit? Being crushed by a giant’s foot without the giant even noticing seems pretty lethal.

Chris, you said that, “The goal is to make people more accountable for their deaths. If picking for death is easy and fast, we can do it in the middle of the event as people die, instead of at the end.” I don’t think that picking throughout the day will make people more accountable, I think it will make it easier for them to avoid picking or to lie and say that they picked. And If you have to monitor everybody picking each time to make sure they pick it will just eat up more time we could be playing.

Hello Doug, Lanelle, and all FanWar players:

It is difficult for me to write a response to the inappropriate and insensitive remarks people have made about our game world. I am happy to debate the rules with all of you to no end, because I strive to keep FanWar a democratic system in which players have input on the rules they want to see in the game. But I cannot ignore a personal attack on me or my game world and just roll over and take it. I'm sorry, but if you think I will take your abuse, you are very, very wrong.

So, before I discuss my feeling about our game world, let me say two words about Kill Zone.
(1) If everybody wants it gone, all they have to do it convince the players that is a good idea and vote to change it. Kill Zone was added because the council at the time liked the idea, so who is to blame for that.
(2) I think your points that this is not real combat are very well taken. We cannot bowl people over or kick them or smash them in the face with a shield, so we cannot simulate a real combat and that is not the goal. However, there are two points I hear Lanelle and Doug bringing up again and again that I keep trying to explain but perhaps it cannot be done on the forums and I need to explain it in person, but will try.
First, yes this is not real combat, but why shouldn't I be able to kill someone, or at least take them out of the combat with one hit. Yes I can't kick you, or tackle you, or trip you, because it isn't safe for the game. But Kill Zone is not a safety issue and it simulates the real danger of combat. I don't know why you think that there is no Kill Zone in real life. There is. It is called your head. Since we can't hit people in the head in FanWar (safety issue), we moved that zone to zone 4. You can protect your Kill Zone (read "head") with a helm so you don't get killed outright. Yes, as you get more armor people can only shoot for the Kill Zone, but you are also protected from the Kill Zone (both Half Plate and Full Plate protect your Kill Zone, remember, so how is that not realistic.
Second, Crits were never random. An Elven Archer with an Elven Longbow at first level has a 33% chance of a Crit. Even if the actual Crit rolled is "random" the sheer number of crits I will get make the likelyhood of killing someone huge. That is not random, that is statistics, and if I am good, I will be able to Kill Zone you much easier. This is true in FanWar as well, as Brandon pointed out. Skilled players protect the Kill Zone just as they would protect their head, and attacking someone's Kill Zone is a tactic. I agree with Trevor that I wish their was more skill and tactics in actual fighting and if you recall (you Veterans) I tried to make a 2 damage hack rule in which the limbs were rendered useless (as hack) when you took 2 damage in one hit on them. That was voted down as it was hard to do in game. I also agree that one hit to limb normally renders it useless (this is Amptguard Rules) and as an idea it is not a bad one, if it was integrated into the system, but currently, we have Hack which does that pretty well, so no one has complained (until now).
(3) Lanelle, the "staff" is a Mana Activated Staff of Healing Touch... sorry if I confused you, but I do no what I'm talking about. Staves do have the ability to cast spells in FanWar. Having said that, I agree with all of you that being able to do anything at -2 is not a good idea and not very simple. I don't like the idea, which is what I said in my post, but I felt obligated to post it anyway since it was discussed. I disagree with the conclusion that "people ARE going to cheat" and that is why we should have a clear rule. If people ARE going to cheat, I don't think the whole game works, so where does that leave us. We expect people who play FanWar to play honestly, the best that they can, and we should teach them to do that.

Now, on the issue of our game world and how it works.
(a) I am sorry if you feel a sense of dispair or inability to change things, but Roekron was orginally designed to mimic the real world. Events that happen in Politics and the environment get translated into FanWar. Elder Sorcery Modified plants (read Genetically Modified Plants) cross pollinate to create Tree Ents that are Invincible but also bent on distruction, just as crops that have been genetically modified to kill other plants around them cross pollinate to create murderous mono-cultures (like in the book Uglies). Good science fiction and Fantasy mimics the real world and brings the issues of the time to the fore in a unique and interesting way. I am not "out to get you" I am modeling what is going on in our real world.
(b) I am sorry if you don't like the way things are headed but I have bent over backwards to help the good side, but as is so often the case in real life, one of you always seems to either turn on the others or run into a very unfortunate circumstance at the critical moment. If you read the Footnote by Artano you can see this happening (is it is a reflection of how things really happened). People set out to kill Gorotock Itack, and unfortunately hit a storm, sank and crawled onto the bank with almost nothing. They attacked him anyway and he won, taking from them some of the coolest Magic Items for a Urukai Warlord with an Army to get (I did not plan that, that just happened, I wanted the heros to win!). He marches on Celindil at the same time as Broden is rising in the Sewers. Wade and Clay and Scott (all awesome fighters) go down to kill him before it gets bad, and half the party had to leave (OUT of game). Wade and Clay go in anyway and steal his stuff and almost kill him but it is no good. Two more times people go down to Kill him and every time they almost do it but can't quite (Scott at Jackson State, Scott and Brandon on the beach at Mechericer). Other players who could have made the difference in the battle always said, "No way, it is hopeless, we can't beat him." and every time he is so close to being killed and all it would have taken is those players who had no hope. Who caused the invasion of Svoduln and the loss of the Dwarven empire? Clay. He masterminded the invasion and the dark forces took advantage of the infighting. Who had a Spellwheel in front of them with more power in it that has ever been seen in Roekron and then made an intention so vaugue it did almost nothing... all of you veterans. You knew you could only use it once, and you threw that opportunity away. Who has been trying to help you guys the whole time? The Green Dragon tried to warn you about the Catastrophe of the Orb and Cronos (my character) blew himself up to cover up for the fact that you guys were so public about the spell wheel killing himself (permanently! taking about seven Carakwaith with him) so that they wouldn't find out about the spell wheel, and the Nergoth Elves, have all been working their butts off to save you guys. So, who traveled into the Far East and gathered together the Legendary weapons that were sent there to keep Broden from ever getting them... you guys did. And what happened to them. The one that could have Killed all the Carakwaith gets unforged because Clay answers a riddle off hand without thinking. The others get destroyed because people overlook the destructive power of the ring again and again. What happens to the Legendary items that have returned to Roekron? They locate the crowns which bring forth the Unicorns which annihilate the Dark City (oh wait, I thought you guys could never acomplish anything!) and then, as the city is reeling and the Unicorns are casting, you all had the opportunity to go down into the Sewers and Kill all those Carakwaith for once and for all. Wade and I suited up for the battle I had been waiting for for five years! But then people realized they might die if the went down there, and as is always the case, they back off and let Broden and his people get away, yet again (is that my fault Doug, show me how). Next, a tree is born with the awesome power to exorsize undead within a 20 mile radius, a gift from the Unicorns, the children of the Elder Goddess. A haven for heros is formed, and what happens, Cora does down under the Sewers to look for the missed opportunity raid the Dark City, but she goes alone, and it is far harder than she expected. She gets trapped. A party of some of the most notable hero's ever goes down to save her and don't realize they are right under the citadel of the the Three. The speak the name of one of these Greater Demons and though there is only a 1-100 chance of them noticing, even at this range, low and behold, I roll a 100! Sorrowveil herself shows up (never happened in FanWar before) and takes these heros to be Carakwaith. Now, what do that happen to have, but a Pathfinder Ring, one of the Legendary items Broden was never suppose to get his hands on. Do the math. In the following season, all the bastions defence against evil are rooted out and destroyed! Why? Because the greatest power of evil now has a means to locate everything it has up until this time been trying to find without success (see Trevor, there WAS a one ring, and the Dark Lords got it!). The Shadow Order which has been saving your guys asses for the last five years, and the Nergoth Elves, and all the heros get jumped by the Mithril Golem Assassins the Dark City has been working on for the last four years game years (read 100 years of game time) now that they have exact locations. Lanelle gets transported to the Dark Citadel and has a personal encounter with the three. I am sorry but if there was ever a moment in FanWar history that demonstraights how one person has the power to change the world, that was it. She summons the Unicorns, who battle the Three, both sides getting permanent wounds (or didn't you notice that Sorrowveil only has one hand now). Truth, (the grey unicorn) senses that it is a trap (and he is right), and so while they want to save Lanelle, they leave because if they stay they will likely die, and Lanelle knows they are more important that her character. Now the Three have one of the Crowns (another Legendary item). Soon, they have Clay and Marcus, who are lured in by Clay's attempts to locate the Shadow Order with his Pathfinder Ring (retrieved when Cieto was rescued and his Pathfinder shield destroyed by self same ring) who doesn't realize that if he can locate the Shadow Order so easily, so can the Demons! Too late, he is jumped and capture by his sister Nim! The Dark City has captured so many heros at this point, they know so much, how could you ever expect them not to act on all that information. Talys, the only living person who can get into the bones of the Forvalaka (since Doug PDed) is captured and turned into a Carakwaith. Oh yes, that was my fault that she happened to be in the party that was under the citadel when one of the Three showed up. Now, even with everything going their way, there is a wild card. Ryan decides to go back to the Dark City, after being rescued and rejoin them, just because. Even though the awesome undead Hurok people are coming from the south trashing the Dark City, and even though the Elven Navy is holding off the Wizards Trade Order, he goes back to the Dark City and tell Broden about a little secret he has. Broden turns on the Three and begins a Civil War of evil against evil. What an opportunity! Broden wins and has set up a ritual that will send the three back to where they came from and is on the verge of doing so when the Three show up to negotiate and give him what he wants. Ravenwing. That which was meant to destory him but was destroyed and now he can possess. But Ravenwing isn't agreeable to the situation and bolts, beginning a 30 year man hunt (or Angel hunt) which only succeeds because of the Pathfinder Items the Dark City now has. Which brings us the present day. If that sounds like a story in which you never had a chance to win, and never will, all I can say is, you must not be listening.
Details, it is all in the details. No Trevor, you will never win against these odds, if you idea of winning is army to army. No Doug you will never win if your idea of winning is that good is more powerful than evil. It never is. Evil outnumbers good because it is so much easier to be evil. It takes hard work, trust, belief, faith, and wisdom to be good. Evil can just take what it wants. You will never win monitarily, because the Dark City was given the mithril mines of Svodlun and has had them for century now. So how will you win. Now through might, or money, or fairness of odds. You will win through Truth, Wisdom, and Love. There are powers in Roekron that are not flashy, but accomplish amazing things. Once again, it is all in the details. Follow the story of Nim, from start to finish (and I do mean the start) and you will see just how powerful those forces are.
So, before any of you accuse me of being unfair, imbalanced, power hungry, or lacking perspective, being bullied by players, or any other number of inappropriate and insensitive remarks please note the following:
Do you have 20 years gaming expience?
Do you have a degree in Creative Writing?
Do you have 16 years teaching experince?
Do you have a degree in Teaching Montessori?
Do you have 10 years experience with organizing, writing, running, building, financing, and publishing a LARP program?
Do you understand just how fundamentally different a LARP is from a table top RPG and how I do not have ultimate control over the baddies, who sometimes do things they aren't suppose to and so upset game balance?
Do you have any idea how hard it is to direct a group of LARPers!? Ask a SubGM some time just how easy it is for your adventure to turn out how you planned it. It is not the same as RPG.
Do you understand that because baddies have to jump into a character they no almost nothing about, they are necessarily handicapped and thus you have an advantage? You can't remember all your skills and abilities and thus you get creamed even though you should live just because you are a baddy. I saw a group of first in a class characters cream a group of 13th level Bandits Tuesday, and Kill Zone has nothing to do with it, we were just baddies and didn't know all we could do. Plan for that!
Do you have a continuously running world map that generates and simulates the entire regions events, and do you have to consider how all those events impact each other every week, and how the heros will effect it every week?
Do you understand that the world history of Roekron IS the world history of FanWar?
Do you understand what lengths one must go to to balance encounters? As I recall, when I was playing my character in your game world Doug, I ran into a Samurai Demon who killed me three times AND Dishonored me. I don't play my character that much, so didn't have many levels to start with. I lost two and was way over my levels at that point so I retired him. Where is the game balance in that Doug.
Have you been playing lately? Have you seen what Kill Zone is like lately? If not, don't you think you should try it first before saying it doesn't work?
Do you understand that you all get to come and play Adult League for free every week, and on weekends and I run all of this and make weapons and buy all the equipment out of my pocket! Players donate sometimes, which helps a lot, but they don't have to. You have a free service here!
Are you running a classroom of 20 students, managing their behavior, organizing their curriculum, and keeping them from bullying each other or the staff on a daily basis?
Are you also running a Junior League for kids eight and up on the few weekends you have off?
Are you also taking 9-12 units of classes on teaching, completing a credentialing program for public school teachers at the same time, and applying all that knowledge to FanWar?
Are you also solving the petty disputed between players who get annoyed at eachother during an event and start yelling at eachother, and solving it in a safe and respectful way?
Are you doing all this? At the same time?
I do my best to respect all of you, all the time, no matter what you might say to me, or how little you seem to know of how hard I work to give all of you all this fun, no matter if people call me "cheap" when I have just spent $250 on new shields, or people call me lazy, because I choose to skip the happenings and events because I hope the heroes will do something important today. I am not making you come to FanWar. If you don't want to be here, please don't come. And if you expect me to continue to respect you, I expect an apology, or don't come at all.

Christopher Melville

Lanelle:

I forgot to discuss the size and Kill Zone issue. I think it is an entirely different discussion all together. Size has never worked very well. In NERO, everyone is the size the actually are, for that reason. We have to use our imagination because it is more fun. I don't think kill zone has anything to do with your experience with Lizard Man (which has everything to do with fighting Clay!). Yes the size system is flawed, but that is not a proof for the issue that Kill Zone is flawed. Taking away Kill Zone does make a Giant harder to kill, but not proportionally. Yes, a Giant would just step on you. But doesn't it make more sense to fix Size, or say that Kill Zone does not apply to creatures more than twice your size (don't say that I am actually advocating that specific rule, that was an example, not a suggestion), and keep Kill Zone for equivalent sized beings. Yes, Size could use a lot of revamping, so lets do that, I am game! I have always wondered how those size 10 Krakens get killed by those size 2 dwarves.
You think I am adding more Mods? A Mod is something we are testing, that is what Mod means, Modification. When we are trying something out we call it a Mod. I am not adding Mods, I am trying things out to see if a core rule could be changed to make the game simpler. Yes, you are right, the game is simpler with no Kill Zone. So maybe that is the solution. People feel that Kill Zone is too lethal. I listen to them and change it so all Kill Zones put you at -2 instead. Yes that is more complicated than getting rid of Kill Zone, but that is not what people voted for. Complicated is also relative. If you asked the players of the old Regen. System if it was more complicated than Hit Points, we would have said no. That is because it was what we were use to. If -2 HP becomes the norm, it will soon seem simple to new players, because they learned it that way.
Finally, I have tried to keep FanWar very simple from the start because I recognized that the more skills and abilities we have, the harder it is to play it with accuracy. But time and again we vote for more complexity. I am following what players want in the game- new classes, new species, mutants, and it has built into a very interesting system. But is it as simple as it was, never. The mods are attempts to fix and adjust the core structure so that it lasts. If this adversely effects skills, than the skills can change, if the base structure is what we want. That is what I am after, a base, core structure that works well.

Christopher

I have PM and emailed Chris, however i feel that my apology should be public.

I was taught that a true apology doesn't try to justify what was done wrong. Because then i am shifting the blame away from myself. So all i can say is that i am deeply sorry that I upset you Chris.

I will also admit that yes, i am feeling very defeated and down at the moment. None of the events that have transpired are your fault and you are correct that WE, the players are at fault for everything that has transpired against us. Most of our misfortunes have been the result of our own failings and we should never have (I regret posting now) brought it up in the forum. Our problems with what we saw in the system should have been addressed privately with you.

Either way, i am truly sorry for the way that I posted against you, my fifth point was out of line. If at all possible a reply would be appreciated, just to know that my appology was recieved, if not accepted.

Sorry, Chris. You were there for us when we needed something to help ground us after school and we turned our backs on you...

_________________
P.S I don't know what i can do, but any reparations that are within my power I would be more than willing to make towards you for my actions Chris.


Trevor Nagy
-"You get the water, i'm not thirsty."

Trevor your words humble me.

Yes Chris I was out of line and I am deeply sorry. Though I have not sent anything private, my actions were public and so my apology should be as well. My post was born more from private frustrations on unrelated matters, but that does not excuse them. I have no right to attack you, and for no reason should I have tried. My intention not to attack the game world and certainly not to attack you, but to expose what I saw as a flaw in the world. I understand, in hindsight, that my words were inflammatory and uncalled for.

Perhaps I can better phrase my problem with the world. I know that good is almost always in the minority, but even then it's strength often makes up for that. Ignoring that, I realize that I am flawed in that when I think of victory on a continental scale I can hardly do it without thinking of it as army to army. I have been surprised so far that with our enemies vast territorial advantage that they don't breed an army large enough to swamp the "good guys" or perhaps they've been trying? I can't see victory in such a way, as you said we can't win by military strength, we can't win monetarily (Even if we could come up with the funds I am not sure it would be a viable option against such a foe.), and we can't win by cultural take over (For our enemies can't come to terms with us or vice versa.). In my limited view this situation is neigh on hopeless. The only options I can conceive of as possibly viable are to either wait for the end and make it one hell of a throw down, or to join our enemies and hope that through some miracle something of our ways and culture survive. Neither option looks very good.

You say that our greatest hope lies in hard work, trust, belief, faith and more importantly, Truth Wisdom and Love. But how can this be? Perhaps I am too pessimistic to see it. But as I see things, on the player side people are there to have fun for the day, not to go and the weight of the fate of a world placed on their shoulders. Life is hard enough. On a personal note. Every day I struggle to try and ensure that I do and say the right things. I worry always that I will do something wrong and cause lasting problems. I often say things I don't mean and fail to say things I do (my close friends know this well) . I can often be described as a screw up and that puts pressure on me, but hey that life. I don't want that kind of pressure when I go to relax and have fun with my friends. But I can't speak for other players on this note. I don't know if you've noticed but my characters, more often than not, are fairly removed from the major goings on. This is because I am afraid that I will do something to screw everything up, I will let Broden go, or break the spell wheel, or something like that (and subsequently I have been quite successful in avoiding such happenings.). Regardless this seems to be almost unavoidable, for these things are all but constant. This is just me though.

On the character side of things, I have always seen chars as day adventurers. People who often devote a day a week to going out and, for their various reasons, try to do something. The rest of the week they are like everyone else, they work their job (be they jester or smith or farmer), and they live their lives to the best of their ability. Most of the time they are fairly poor, they sleep on the road, and have trouble trying to make ends meet. This usually leads them to adventuring, the chance to earn a little fame or fortune, or to just spice up another boring week. With notable exceptions they are often born to common families, they are not marked by the stars, they are not born to prophesy (or are they?) they are just people. There are exceptions, lords and sons of lords and those few noble hearts who by birth or wish are forced along their road. Why then does the weight of the world sit on all their shoulders? Why is up to them to turn the tide of a battle, or to find these great artifacts? If you were able to talk to these chars as a living entity with out all the knowledge, and experiences of their creator, how many do you think would wish for this path, how many do you think would wish to bear these burdens? Perhaps I am being pessimistic again but I think many of them would rather be able to adventure and live without the thought that they wasted a day better spent fighting the great enemies of the world or seeking the great lost artifacts that fall into the hands of farmers.

You say that we shall win through love and faith, but that is so hard to engender in what is ultimately a false world. It is sad, but I have never been in love with the world real or no. I love the game, but not world. Once we were ignorant of the goings on of the world, and though sometimes we were touched by its happenings they rarely lasted and soon everything was back to normal. This is what I meant when I spoke of balance. It seems like now when a char is created ( Or in game when a person decides that this is they day that he will try to become a little more than what he is) he is almost immediately swept up into saving the world, because if not them then who? In each of your examples it was the player who created the problems or failed to solve them. And this is true, we messed up, bad and often. But is this not to be expected? There will always be players who by fault or intention will screw things up. We players are rarely a balancing force but more often an unbalancing force. And by your admission, one person can change the face of the world. But often it will not be for the better no matter the intention. When commoners and freeholders so often bear the fate of the world is it not to be expected that things will not turn out as expected or hoped? I know I have not played in a while but the mere thought that I would create a firsty who in a short time would ultimately do something to call the wrath of some great power makes me not even want to play..

FanWar has given me more than I can ever give back. This is an undeniable fact. I never wished to denounce you or the living breathing world that you have created. What you have managed to accomplish is seconded by few. But please can you see what I am trying to say? Can you understand where I am coming from? My mind is limited I know, and I find it difficult when I feel the responsibility of knowing that there is a wrong to be righted and I can see no way of doing so. I don't know if you remember but only twice have I played an evil char, one lasted two events one lasted four, then both were permanently retired. Only twice more have I played neutral chars, those lasted a bit longer but still not very long. All my other chars, all those who I actually worked on and cared about were good because it reflects me. My friends know I have a hard time doing anything wrong (much as some of them might try to change that.). When I realized that I had so deeply offended you, it shamed me for that is not me. My point is that I have a hard time playing in a world where I feel I must be epic for how else can I do what needs to be done. Besides the players who else accomplishes things? Dark Heroes? It is true that you bend over backward to help the players but this is still putting the responsibility on them. How can I focus on having fun and enjoying the game, which is the ultimate goal I think, when all I can think about is how the world is likely doomed without us, and we are probably going to mess up.

Usually I am an optimist but the direness of the situation has sapped my will to care. As much as I love the game it just isn't worth it to feel obligated to constantly try to save the world. I am just a person, not a super hero.

So finally I hope that you can accept my sincere apologies at my insult. I know how hard you work. I hope also that you can see my frustrations, and understand where I am coming from. If not I fear my insult will have gone without any positive effect. I don't know how to fix things, you yourself noted that my sense of balance aint too keen, which basically leaves my argument without merit. With luck though you may understand that I meant you no ill, and perhaps also something might come from this transgression.

My deepest apologies,
Doug

Hello Doug, Trevor, and everyone else who made the effort to apologize for things they may have done (especially to those people who didn't do anything in the first place), thank you. Apology accepted.

I wish I had more time to write, but for now, a few words. Doug, I understand how you feel, and I know that many players don't want to be responsible for the world, they just want to play in it. But this is exactly what plagues our culture at this point. Too many people want to play in the world (get the new car, have the nice clothes, the easy job) and forget about the fact that they are responsible for the culture and future of the world. This is not to say that one should feel overwhelmed by the burden. But those who do not act, from the smallest piece to the largest to change the world for the better, are remaining in denial about the state of the world and that the world needs everyone to take action in whatever way they can. I am talking about both the real world and Roekron (since they are connected). We all have the opportunity to change the world for the better. But do we take that responsibility, or decide we just want to play. Granted, going and playing is fine, and we all go slaughter goblins or battle people like the Fisher King because it is just fun. But that is not all there is too it. It isn't just about fun.
I remember having a conversation with Wade about the same thing. He was realizing just how much power the characters had and how important it was to the world and he was getting stress and having less fun at FanWar. I know these things happen, and that is why you have two characters, so you can play your not so important guy, and you critical player. But speaking from a Creative Writing standpoint, the characters in a story are never really just your average Joe, and that is the point. Yes, they may be just a Peasent, but if you make a character who is a peasant, than this peasent has a role to play in the events that are shaping my world. Why? Because someone has bothered to play him as a character. There are millions of people in Roekron, all doing their daily routines, and all governed by the gods and goddesses that have control over them to a greater or lesser degree. But you guys are not governed by those forces. You guys are the free willed, wild cards in Roekron and you are marked by destiny. Every person in Roekron doesn't roll on the Backstory chart, that would be a pretty crazy world. Characters do because they are special, and have special pasts, that will effect their character. The story is being told from your characters perspective and as such, these are the people who will feature in world, and thus, whether they feature by staying out of the way of events, or taking a hand in them, that is what makes the story. Otherwise, we are all just leveling up characters and doing endless, pointless battles. It has to mean something, or why do we care. That is a Creative Writing element such that the main character in a book is chosen because what they do is meaningful. I don't expect everyone to change the world. But if they don't do anything about it, should they be surprised when it all gets destroyed.
I don't want everyone to be stressed that they have to fix the world. You can always leave it up to the odds. It is sort of like playing the Lottery. But how Lucky do you feel. If you want a good comparison of this, check out the Global Warming video done by the High School teacher on YouTube. You will see exactly what I mean by choices.

Christopher

Hello all:

This is an update of the hotly disputed Kill Zone rule and what we decided to do about it. Kill Zone is dead, at least until June, and then we will decide if it PDed.

During a great discussion over lunch on Saturday several FanWar Veterans pointed out a very interesting and at first counter intuitive argument against Kill Zone: it just isn't as fun to battle. While we all came to agreement that one damage Kill Zone was really, without question, realistic, we also realized that the game was more fun to play when we didn't have it. The battles were longer, and more complicated, the monsters harder to fight and scarier. So we did a little test and played the afternoon with no Kill Zone. Wow! What a difference, and a lot of fun too. We voted at the end of the day to drop Kill Zone all together, not because it isn't realistic, but because the game is just more fun that way. So it is now officially gone, and will stay that way if by June, people still feel it should be gone.
As a side note, there was still a feeling that it would be nice to have something LIKE kill zone, but none of us could think of a working solution. Thus, we are all ears for the next two months.
We decided to keep the -2 Critical Wound Mod, with one important fix. If you complete First Aid on someone who is at -2, then they are stabilized. Their Death Count returns to the normal ROR in minuets but they do not wake up. Thus, if you can get to the player who is at -2 fast and do the first aid, they might survive long enough for the battle to end and a healer to arrive.
We are also keeping the Vitals is a Modifier Mod, though, one could argue, now that we have removed Kill Zone, perhaps we don't need to change Vitals. I think keeping the Vitals is a Modifer Mod is a good idea though because without Kill Zone, the only way to die in combat is to take a lot of damage at once, and stacking Vitals with AV=0 means there is potential for taking a lot of damage at once, so that should counterbalance things.

More later.

Christopher

Just a quick note to remind people that we have some issue to solve in FanWar regarding Mutants and Size.
First of all, Mutants are getting out of control. Not that that is anyones fault but mine, since I approve them, but it does seem like people are making mutants and using them without approval from me first. Usually I trust more experience players to be making their mutants correctly, but I think people are forgetting some key principles here. Mutants are only suppose to have abilities their animal counterparts would have. Our mutant system is based on the TMNT system which gives limits to types of abilities one can get based on their species. Since we don't have a chart like that we have had to improvise but it seems to not be working. This is how it should work.
Most furred animals will have only a +1 AV Max. Most scalled creatures would get +2 AV, and something like a Turtle or Armadillo etc. might get +3 AV.
A creature with a low ROR should have a reason for having it. Low ROR equates to a quick recovery time. Is there evidence of this in your animal. Large amounts of mana equates to a lot of mental strength. Is there evidence of that in your animal. The size of an animal should also impact the amount of HP a creature has. If you are small, you should not have many HP. Just because your animal has claws does not mean they are razoe sharp and can cut through metal like cloth... is there evidence of this with your animal. If not, it is more likely you just have martial arts.

Turning to the issue of size, it is certainly an system that could use some fixes. Small things should be hard to hit, but I don't know if giving them armor is the right way to handle that. Shouldn't big things be easier to hit? How will be handle this? We made size and the effects of tiny sizes before we had many of the new species type abilities like partial hands, etc. I tried to fix our old "Evade" system of tiny creatures by changing it to simple AV adds, but that seems to have become problematic as well. A simpler system for making small creatures believable and big creature formidable is something I am interested in hearing peoples ideas on. Since you actually aren't any smaller, being small doesn't seem to be a big enough disadvantage in the game, since you can fight just as well. Here are a few I have off the top of my head:
Replace the +2 AV add for being size 0 with Combat Shimmering. Size 0 creatures would have to call it BC which means they are actively evading in combat.
Replace the +2 AV add with a "avoiding combat" condition in which the +2 AV only counts when the creature is trying not to fight (i.e. escaping). Thus, if you are attacking something, you have no AV add.
Remove the +2 AV add completely. Then we could add a new creature ability called "Evasive" which small critters could purchase for whatever build we deem fit and could be an ability does something else to imply that some creatures are hard to hit (like an Evade Missiles hybrid or something).
Big things should have Speed (or something like it). Think of Entstride.
Big things should be able to use bigger weapons. Perhaps the 2 Handed Weapon in One hand ability should be an effect of size rather than Improved Strength (or both). Thus, creatures that are above size 4 could just use two handed weapons in one hand. Characters who get Improved Strength would also get this ability. Monsters with both might get added damage! It make sense.
Big things should do more with their martial arts. If you get swatted by a Oger with Martial arts, it should do more than a size 0 mutant.

Thats all for now.

Christopher

I like the avoiding combat idea a lot. It would make sense for you to be actively using your small size to avoid damage, rather than when you attack you leave yourself open

I also like the larger creature idea, the two handed weapon in one hand as a size requirement makes sense, an Ogre or Giant would use a 2handed weapon as a single handed weapon. Overall i love the bigger things do more damage idea. Keeps larger creature from being non-imposing to the player. I remember first encountering Giants an i swung a six at me an my first thought was, "Crap... that would kill me twice over!" Making more powerful players worry more about the damage would keep it interesting.

Also, what is the speed/entstride ability? I didn't really follow that one.

I think entstride is just a reference to the literal length (and therefore relative speed) of an ents stride.
--The avoiding combat idea is my favorite but may be somewhat difficult to do in battle. If it is a call, I don't think it would pose any difficulties though as long as everyone knows what it does.
--Secondary I think would be the combat shimmering as this is an existing ability and makes sense that the creature is concentrating on not getting hit (standing in one place for us at size 3, could easily be seen as running or flying in a small area for something size 0)
--Plus to martial arts attacks for big creatures makes sense. Big dif between a person hitting you and a cave troll, check lotr. Anyway what about +1 dam for each size over 4 or 5. or for every other size above. and perhaps -1 for each size under 2.
--Absolutely big thing should be able to use a two handed weapon in one. Once again lotr, cave troll picked up a spear that would prob take two people to lift, and used it like a light lance or javelin.
--I can understand not giving big things an inherent imp str. But by having both literal imp str and by being big it should do extra damage but nothing extreme. maybe just a +1, not hard to remember that way.
--Are there any creatures that are "big" that would not be able to use a two handed weapon one handed (i.e. too lean or something.) If not a global rule would be fine, if so then you could keyword that ability in a creature so that at a glance you would know whether you can do this or no (for baddies looking in the book)

Mutants and Size:

Just a few notes to think about:
If we decrease the amount of build you get for disadvantages, then we could offset how powerful Mutants are pretty easily. If you got less build fro taking a disadvantage, then players wouldn't have so many abilities at startup. I ran some tests on current monsters and while I found that the Build system works for things like HP, Mana, Size, AV and basic skills, it gets out of hand when class based skills are introduced. So many monsters would be way more deadly if they spent their build on skills instead of an extra 2 HP or 1 Size (which does nothing much for them currently). Perhaps a solution is to increase the cost of Class Based Skills by 1. Thoughts.

Here are some thoughts on how Size and Two Handed Weapons might work. Over size 4 and you can use a Two Handed Weapon in one hand. Improved Strength would read that you deal +1 damage and double your carrying capacity (which would mean you are twice the size for strength purposes- and thus humans on up would be able to use two handed weapon in one hand. (though Dwarves and Hobbits etc. would not). Size 2 and 1 things would still get a + 1 damage, but bigger things would be getting a little more out of it.
Another thought is to implement the damage by size that Giant Strength does without the need for Giant Strength, though obviously we can't just translate it directly, because monsters would be too powerful. Still, something like that might work.
I find that the biggest problem with big things is that they should not just deal more damage but have more force. We can't use force in FanWar so that translates to AV=0 or UB. So often, Giants are swinging for 10, but it is normal damage so people don't worry (they just worry about the boulders). If big things got Armor Piercing, it might be more realistic. Thoughts?
Ultimately, I think the goal with monsters over size 4 is that they should be more formidible as huge opponants are, and currently they are just able to carry big stuff.

Christopher

the thought that all big things get AV=0 is a good one i think. It translates the force aspect pretty well. It is going through your armor to cause damage. I expect a knight getting hit by a giant or Ogre wouldn't matter if he was wearing plate mail. In LOTR they still tried to get away from those big things. As for UB hits... no i don't think so, would make big things far to dangerous for anyone to even attempt to fight. 10 UB normal swings would DROP anyone. So my vote is for giving big things AV=0, gives them something to make players fear them and makes them more useful in evil armies (I know, helping the enemy) but it makes sense to me. But then again, i've run across lawful good samurai Giants.

I like the size build idea with improved strength it makes sense that even though a small guy got stronger he still can't carry that clay more or two handed longsword in one hand. AV:0 would be annoying but it does make sense I think it shouldn't be to broad of an advantage like maybe size six and up get it or something maybe even size seven but I wouldn't go lower than six. Would you have to have giant strength to get the AV:0 or would it just be size related? I don't think that having UB on every hit is a good idea though it would just make it so only really epic characters can be a formidable opponent to monsters UB is special and like fernir said boulders is fine but other than that I don't think it would be a good idea.

You have a good Point Roscoe, size 4 is a little to small. however i think size 5 should be the start rather than size 6 for AV=0. Reasoning for this is ogre's, trolls and golems. all of these things are big and strong, strong enough to launch players with the damage they swing (at least in my mind).