I agree that a blanket one-hit killzone is too cool. Chris, I know you don't like it, but I really think that having the one-hit killzone only in the front would work well.

I'm fine with forced incant, even though some of them are kind of long. Also, how do you do incants for life spells when you're trying to kill undead? "With Rebirth, I kill you" sounds pretty weird...

Mounts should definitely be extremely expensive, considering that with the mana-boosted trades and crafts, a level 4 journeyman could have 10 levels in Riding. I think a basic horse should be around 75 gold, with exponentially higher prices for less common mounts. This also will make familiars much more valuable, which is fine, since we need to buff Nature Mages anyway.

Insted of having an overall one hit kill zone, you could make it so that only swords and other stabbing wepons are able to do a one hit kill. That would beef up the swords so they were cool without giving too much power to everything else (like specters with martail arts!!!). Just a tyhought, do what you will with it.

Only bladed weapons? thats pretty foolish, you can just as easily kill someone with a blow to the belly or (Killzone) with a blunt weapon, you destroy their internal organs putting them into shock, much like a lethal stab wound or splitting them open.

Finally i would like to bring up a thought of a single kill zone, I think it is stupid, we (humans) have vital points all over our bodies. Choosing a single place to kill use would have to fall into a N/A zone (Head). You CAN live through a belly stab wound if you are lucky, you can live through being stabbed through the chest. The only place you cannot live through receiving lethal force is the head. I hate to say it but I think you guys are overcomplicating the combat system. swords as a rule do less damage than blunt weapons. They can cut and stab, Blunt weapons are made for damage, but they are cumbersome.

Also i would like to bring up that a mount would be almost triple or quadruple maintenance costs for a player. it would cost around 20 silver (I don't know how expensive grain or hay is) i'm averaging the amount of feed the horse would need 1.5% to 2.5% of an 1000 pound horse (Average riding horses weight) just for the food, they also drink 10-12 gallons of water. You need to take time to groom your horse to check for injuries and make the animal more trusting of you, and you need to get the animal shoed and make sure you take care of its hooves. You would also need to take care of its legs to check for swelling and lacerations that need to be bandaged. Also the feeding would be per day, not per week.

this would also have to be calculated for ANY animal that the player had with them (Familiars) they have to eat and be cared for too. Wild animals in Town? I don't think hunting is an option.

I think you're misunderstanding the purpose the killzone serves in Fanwar. When someone gets killzoned, it's treated as if the attacker got a "lucky shot" - stabbed them through the eye, neck, or similar. The reason it's placed on the belly is because it's the hardest legal place to hit - not because a belly wound would actually kill them. (This is the same reason why armor starts on the outside and moves inward; obviously that's not how it really works) Of course there are other weak points, but since this is a LARP we can't actually hit people in the head. That's why I think weapons that deal 1 damage should also have an opportunity for killzoning people, because there's always a chance you could hit a weak point.

I do not misunderstand killzones, however no matter how LUCKY you are you need to have enough FORCE you actually kill the person. 1 damage is insignificant, its like getting a deep cut in real life. 2 damage is getting slashed open, to the point that you probably would need to be sown back together, anything higher than that and you are basically pulping whatever you hit or are so precise that you are attacking specific parts of the body. As a result taking it down to 1 damage makes it laughable. 1 point of damage as an achilles heel kill? I'm sorry but i don't see the logic behind the change to 1 point of damage.

Got a point there. The whole purpose of a sword was to be quick and agile but not neccisarrily instantly lethal, they work that way in larp by dealing less damage. A sword always has a chance of slipping past organs and dealing no serious damage. Making it easier to perform killzone hits with them doesn't make logical sense. If, in game, you needed to power them up that is an option though it doesn't "feel good" if you know what I mean. Second, the purpose of blunt weapons was to cause "shock" they hit hard and do internal damage more than external. Thusly in larp they deal more damage but are equally difficult to weild. (Try to kz someone with a shield while using a hammer.) Now that the obvious is out of the way. Killzone is more than a lucky shot. There is no way to litterally do a lucky shot in game. Kz is SKILL everyone knows where the Kz is and so if they can do 2 or more damage will usually aim there. Thats not luck, you don't aim for luck, you hope for luck. Aiming for the Kz is aiming for areas that even the most basic fighter knows are weak on a persons body. The areas of weakness are are multiple on a real person and should be multiple in larp. having it on the back ALSO, makes sense. Hitting someone in the back kz when they don't see it coming is like bashing someone in the back of the skull, or slipping a blade between their ribs or vertebre, when they don't see it coming. If you want to deal with lowering the power of kz think about removing it for certain creatures whos weaknesses might not be known or add a lvl requirement, ie gaining the experience necessary to actually hit those weak spots and/or hit them with enough force. but don't remove them or say that 1 damage can work (which is utterly foolish and incredibly overpowering.)

well thats my two cents anyway...

One Hit Kill Zone:

I respect your arguments against the one hit kill zone but I think you are thinking too much in a FanWar system model and not enough in a real world model. Consider the following.

If two people are trying to stab each-other with short swords (the most lethal weapon in world history- pound per pound), is it impossible for one of them to kill the other with just one stroke? If the answer is no, then the one hit kill zone makes sense. I am sorry, but if I shove a short sword through your eye, you are going to die, and I don't have to be a trained assassin to know that! I can also shove that sword right through your heart and you are dead. Currently, it would seem there is some strange power that keeps swords from being able to kill people in FanWar. Even a knife is lethal if it hits the right spot.
Here are my reasons for wanting to keep the one hit kill zone:
(1): It is much more realistic, all weapons are potentially lethal (which is true).
(2): Swords and javalines etc. are given there fair place in combat. Yes a Axe or Hammer is much better for battling opponents with lots of HP, because you can drop them no matter where you hit them, but the sword can drop them if you target well.
(3): Often, a goal in real combat is to kill one opponent quickly to move on to the next. In old school FanWar (the one hit system) melee is very realistic because you strike, and know instantly that that person is down and so can quickly turn to defend or attack someone else. With a one hit kill zone, players could use the same strategy to strike the kill zone and then quickly turn to parry etc. knowing that player was dead.
(4): Less squabbling, simpler to learn. If the kill zone is a one hit zone, players do not have to factor in the amount of damage and then consider Damage Cap etc, they know they are just dead. It is also easier to teach new players about and easier for everyone to remember (in fact, many people even now think that is the way kill zone works).
(5): The Fear Factor: Currently, players are complacent about battle in which opponents have swords or similar weapons because they know that once they fall unconscious they will be left alone and that they can't be killed in the actual battle so there is nothing to loose. Real combat is very lethal no matter what the situation. There is always a chance that you could be killed, and without that chance, the game becomes a sham.
(6): Critical Hits: I cannot think of a game system that does not allow you to Crit with a Sword. Currently, our game system would be like saying you have to have an Axe or a Hammer to roll a natural 20 etc. No one would use swords in a system like that because the Crit is what turns the tides of battle, that lucky "Heart Pierced, die immediately!" that topples the Cave Troll and suddenly things are looking up!
(7): Resurrection: In a world where people get killed and then talk to you about it in the bar later, "Yeah, I got killed three times today!" "Bummer man." why are we making the system LESS lethal. If dieing was actually a big deal, like the end of your character, I would be more likely to agree with you. But death is often just a momentary setback, taking you out of the particular battle for a time. Why then should we be trying to keep the game from reflecting the real lethality of combat, when death is just a speed bump.
(: Armor and Helms give protection: Since the game already has ways to overcome the kill zone, why are we so worried about it. If you really are scared, pay the extra 16 gold for a full helm and your worries are over. Half Plate protects the kill zone in the back and Full Plate protects all over.
(9): Martial Arts is not a problem. Yes I can etheral travel behind you and then kill zone you but that is not going to happen as often as you think. If an etheral being is close to you, you are going to be getting the creeps and probably start turning circles if you have any sense. Furthermore, even without the one hit kill zone I could pop out and Knock Out the person with my hand and then kill them, so what is the difference.
(10): Kill Zone should not be 1 in the front and 2 in the back because Half Plate Already makes that distinction and it is way too confusing that way. The goal is to make things simpler and better, not more convoluted. One hit kill zone does this because people don't have to think about amounts or front or back, it is simple, straightforward rule. You get hit here, you die!

Enough said on the one hit kill zone. About Mounts:
Yes they will be very expensive.
Consider also a world where mounts are novelty items, not beasts of burden. FanWar has never been a world FULL of horses and mounted people. ALL mounts will be very, very rare... even horses, because horses are just as wild in Roekron as Zebras. Thus, to see someone rid a horse would be like us seeing someone ride a dolphin. The same amount of skill will be required because it is like circus training. Just to ride a horse, you need at least 10 lvl in Horse Riding. More are required if you want it not to bolt in combat, and for it to face scary foes. Lvls in Riding DO NOT cross over from mount to mount but are specific to that particular mount type. Furthermore, the mount does not give you any abilities other than its added protection and Endurance in OUT of game situations. Finally, consider that since stables are unheard of and horse shoes unknown, the matenence cost of mounts is going to be like that of a Master Crafted Item. Very high.

Christopher

Hello all FanWar Players:

I am ordering new bucklers shields and they will be the same as the ones we have as none have broken and they hold up very well! However, I am wondering if people would like them to be a difference size? The old bucklers were a little smaller. Should I get them smaller so they are more like the old bucklers? Also, I plan to put pipe insulation around the edge, like on the big shields, so that will make them bigger as well. Getting smaller shield and then padding the edge might make them the exact same size! Should I get extra small and then pad them so they end up smaller then our current bucklers? Thoughts?

Christopher

Yeah, if you're gonna pad them definitely go smaller, and padding would be good what with the handles and edges.

Hello All FanWar Players:

Here are the following changes made this season to the FanWar base rules set that we have either approved or agree to continue to playtest into the start of the season as well as a few brand new modes being implemented:
(1) Forced Incants: if you don't state what you spell/skill does when you cast it, your defender can call a "miscast" and take no effect.
(2) Potions Take Time to Use: ROR in seconds.
(3) Double base levels in a Trade Craft for 1 Mana for one encounter.
(4) New Trade Craft under Other (Healer, heals 1 HP per lvl in Healer per day).
(5) Knock and and Damage put an Unconsciousness on the "stack." If someone is unconscious and you give them a potions, an enemy can poke them or knock them out to "reset" their Unconscious state and thus they won't wake up when the Potion resolves (though they might gain the HP).
(6) Bows are Impact Weapons. All bows now do +1 damage.
(7) Mounts now officially exist and are marked by leopard print sashes. They will still be very rare and extremely expensive and hard to ride. They currently just add to your HP but see below for other mods*.
( Giant Growth now cost no Mana and forces the person it is cast on to be Stationary for their ROR (and thus can be used as an offensive weapon as well as an ability for your allies).
(9) One Hit Kill Zone. Any damage to the kill zone kills you, not 2 or more damage.
(10) Alignment is not a known condition. This means you cannot refer to peoples alignment In Game. Detect Alignment does not force players to tell you their Alignment but rather you must select what you want it to check for and then it only checks for that (Evil, Lawful, Chaotic, Nuetral, Good etc. like Advanced Might Strike). Detect Alignment will only tell the Paladin that they detect that Alignment in the general area but it could be picking up someones evil Magic Items (since they have souls too!) and make them appear evil etc. Since Alignment is not a know condition, you cannot use resolve conflict or peacekeeper to ask someone "What is your Alignment?" You would have to ask "Are you evil?" But even that is subjective, since the person would have to think of themselves as evil. This mod is designed to force people to have to judge people more on their actions and less by snap judgment based on alignments and to allow players to be more complex then simply Chaotic Evil or True Neutral.

I recently talked with Wade and he came up with a great Mod for mounts that I thought was a beautiful solution, and element. Make Mounts mobile Fortified Areas. While mounted you are consider in a Fortified Area and thus get +1 HP, +1 AV and deal +1 damage. This seems like a great system because it doesn't actually introduce anything new to the rules system, just makes a stationary skill mobile. While I think it is cool that the mount can take damage for the rider and then get healed, I think it might be a bit powerful. I also don't think that horse were really designed to be a damage sponge. If you chopped a horse with an ax, generally speaking, that's it for the horse. They were uses for maneuvering, hight advantage, and speed (or attack and retreat). I think Wades solution is much simpler and easier to implement. I also still think it would be nice to add something like Speed to Mounts so that their could be a tactile advantage to mounts in combat. If they had Speed they would (a) always catch up to fleeing people, (b) always be able to flee, (c) be able to enter an encounter before the rest of the party by out pacing them and (d) be able to approach combat OUT of game until withing combat range.
This last one "d" I think is the really critical one. If you can charge on your horse OUT of game and close on some monsters, they will have to ignore you while you get close and then suddenly you will be withing combat range (about 30 feet from them). This, coupled with the Fortified Area mod would make them perfect, because not only would you be more powerful In Combat on a Horse, but you could use them tactically to rush monsters before they have time to react etc. or surprise monsters you run into, do a hit and run and then be OUT of combat. Since mounts will be so rare, and expensive to maintain and buy, I don't see this as being too powerful for them. Speed also does not say that Flying creature still can't catch you, so it still makes sense and is not too powerful. If Speed seems too powerful, we could just give them one of those 4 abilities. From looking at how games like L5R and Magic used mounted troops I think these two mods would work well together. However, it may be that only one is required. Still, the damage sponge, though simple, just doesn't seem like a good overall solution and opens loop holes for healers that I think will be very abused. Healing your mount while you are riding around and such will be very powerful.

Christopher

just figured id wiegh in on this controversial subject. i beleive that the one hit kill system for any amount of damage makes sense, particularly from a real world perspective. but doesnt negatively effect balance either. the fact is that any weapon that can be classified as such is potentially deadly in one blow, with the exception of weapons not intended to kill, a sword thrust to the heart, eye or other vital area means your out of commision, and while skilled characters can hit it more easily, any average joe with a pitchfork can just happen to hit the heart, the area is small and generally well protected, and is so positioned to make accidental hits rare, but when they happen they are noteworthy, thus the peasant dropped a giant with a shortbow, or the archer dropped smaug with a well placed plack fletched arrow, it can be done, and while heavier weapons have increased damage capacity, in general, they dont have any better chance to hit a vital, well defended area, as your experience with hammers and axes will show. for example, the rapier, while only dealing light slashes with a glancing blow, is quite deadly if you run someone through, same with a dagger buried in ones back, or for that matter a javelin or shortspear to the gut, all of these are lethal, and acheivable with any level of skill, though less likely from the unskilled, it is by no means impossible, and game rules should reflect this. i can undershand you may want to have the killzone smaller for one damage weapons but even this would be innacurate. particularly in the case of the sword, and also severely clunky in implementation and gameplay. even in dungeons and dragons swords have an overall higher crit range, reflecting that while telling blows dont do quite as much damage as a crit with a greataxe, they do happen more often, and have the chance to end a battle abrubtly.

I like that idea for mounts. Horses truly were never meant to take any real damage. Though it would be interesting to add a way to kill a mount. Perhaps a large enough blow, say three or more damage?, would kill the mount instead of damaging the rider. or each type of mount could have an "HP" and if the rider would take that value or more from a single attack, it kills the mount instead? Anyway a thought for the abilities if your thinking that all of the abilities is too much then you could have the purchaser pick. This would be represented by choosing the breed of the animal. Some horses are bred for speed, others for strength ect. The difference between riding a Stallion and a Clydesdale. It is not inconceivable to limit the number of breeds within your specific world.

i think we should take a little look at barbarian and knight they both kinda suck now, especially knight.. just a little sumthing i was thinkin about.

Arrows are impact weapons? What? Why? That just seems like craziness.

I’m surprised it was even a question whether or not to give speed to mounts. Yes. Horses are fast. That’s why you get a horse. It goes fast. That’s why we got a camel. But they should cost outrageous amounts to buy and take care of. As I recall, you don’t need much training to just ride the mount, though I think it has to be specific to the type of mount (camel riding vs. horse riding) but I think you should have a lot to ride it in battle. If you get ambushed though I think you should be able to make the mount stay in one place, I remember stuff like that happening; things attacked so the camel stopped.
I really like the fortified area idea. It just seems good, whereas healing your mount just seems cheap. If we decide that mounts have to be killed before the rider, I think that the rider should be able to be attacked with missile weapons. Possibly by things with flying, but that seems muddy. I vote for mounts being mobile fortified areas though.

(1): It is much more realistic, all weapons are potentially lethal:
I like what Brandon said, “All of these are lethal, and achievable with any level of skill, though less likely from the unskilled, it is by no means impossible” The part I like most is “any level of skill.” The crit chance for a trained hero using a dagger and a first level ork using a dagger shouldn’t be the same. I think the kill zone should be two because you can get damage buffs. Someone who has more training with their weapon (like +1 vitals) would be more likely than someone who just picked it up to use it right and get a crit. +vitals also seems weaker if you only need one damage to kill someone by aiming in that area.
(2): Swords, javelins, etc.: I don’t think any weapon needs a fair place in combat; every weapon has its own place in combat. Impact weapons deal more damage but are slightly awkward. Swords don’t deal much damage but are easy to use. Arrows have long rage, AV=0 and are missile weapons but a bow is hard to block with. Spears have long and short range, can be missile weapons and are great for blocking since you can keep the enemy five feet away, but deal less damage and is slightly harder to use.
(3): This isn’t real combat and it’s not junior league. The goal of fanwar is to level up so you have more hit points and more abilities so you don’t drop from one hit. Journeymen still have quick battles like that of real battle since they only need to be hit about twice. But whatever the situation, in fanwar you should never assume someone is going to stay down.
(4): Enemies don’t need to know you have skills like damage cap, you need to know you have damage cap. If you don’t take the damage there is a reason you didn’t take the damage. It’s very common that people think they hit someone somewhere they didn’t. (‘I hit you.’ ‘No you hit my armor.’ ‘No, I hit your upper arm, you’re wearing leather.’ ‘No, you hit my lower arm. I felt it, it’s my arm.’) The same thing happens with kill zone, no matter how much damage it takes. You only know if you hit someone else in the kill zone if they die.
(5): The Fear Factor: Besides arrows and spells, the weapon an enemy is using never influences how I feel about the battle. To me the main factors in a battle are what level the baddies are, how many there are and who is playing them, not what they are using. If my party comes up against a similar size group of baddies of similar level, HP, and intelligence that are all using impact weapons, I’m going to figure we can take them. If my party comes up against Wade, Clay and Scott playing baddies of fair intelligence and fair level all duel wielding swords or daggers I am going to walk away and hope they didn’t even see me.
(6): Critical Hits: In addition to (1), I think we are making crit chance greater than it should be. In Arduin, crit chances are relatively low, about 10% (according to Rinaldo & Anais- Getting Militant [you know what I mean Chris]). Compare that to the fumble chance or about 5%. That means that for every two people who get kill zoned we should have one person who gets physically hurt. I don’t like those odds. In Arduin, even if you are lucky enough to get a crit, you aren’t necessarily going to kill the person. Out of about 70 different crits, only seven cause immediate death and only ten lead to eventual death. So, only 1% of all hits would cause immediate death.
(7): Resurrection: Why are you trying to make the system more deadly? Dying sucks. You can loose memories, items, party members and eventually PD. For me the conversation goes “Crap, I died.” “That sucks, when was the last time you died?” “I don’t know, a while ago. I kinda try to avoid it.” Even if you don’t care about PDing, dying is bad. If you don’t have a way to rebirth people, having a chunk of your party die makes it more likely for the rest of the party to die since you have fewer fighters. Lying on the ground dead hoping for a nice life mage to stumble upon you isn’t fun.
(8 ): Armor and Helms give protection: Mages can’t wear helms.
(9): Martial Arts: I remember being in a room filled with specters and being terrified that they were going to pop out and kill zone me (I can’t remember why, but it was feasible). But I don’t think that martial arts is the problem in this situation, ethereal travel is the problem, but it should be. No how much damage you need for kill zone it will always be easier with ethereal travel. That’s just how t is and probably how I should be.
(10): 1 in the front and 2 in the back: I agree. This doesn’t make sense for why I would be this way and it is more confusing and harder to remember.

Great Post Nell!

This is the kind of reasoned argumentation I have come to expect from you. FanWar veterans take note, Nell uses sources (as in Rinaldo and Anais, and I do know what she means...).
Here is my rebuttal.

First of all, Arrows are Impact Weapons not Blunt Weapons. They attack with a great amount of Impact in real life and often knock people down. In Arduin the deal double shock damage and often drop monsters with one hit. That is what I mean.
The question about Mounts having Speed was more of an In Combat issue- do they have Speed (the Mutant Ability). The best solution I have so far is Dougs mod which is that some Horses have Speed and others are War Horse and are mobile Fortified Areas. You can choose your breed and yes they are very expensive... lets say at least 64 gold (remember maintenance on that).

Now, about Kill Zone:
(1) You have not solved the problem. All weapons are potentially lethal. If the kill zone is 2 damage, I cannot kill someone with a shortsword, which is ludicrous. Find a way to fix that and I might be happy.
(2) Swords and Javelins use to have their place in combat before Axes and Hammers and Flails became way cool due to kill zone. The added damage was perfect, but two damage kill zone is out of date. A Javelin should be able to kill you, how do we account for that.
(3) Yes it isn't real combat, or Junior League, but the more realistic it is, the more intuitive it is, and thus the easier it is to play. Fencers should have a chance.
(4) I think there is less squabbling and less confusion on the part of the person hit. Instead of trying to figure out how much damage that was and such, one just notices where it hit and goes down. Timing is so important in Live Action and even a few seconds make or break an encounter.
(5) I think your fearlessness about the weapons people are using is more about you and less about the system. I am a seasoned player, but if I am walking up to battle with two shortswords and I notice that half the enemy has bows, I am nervous... Flails and Axes deal a lot of damage and even a Warrior has be be careful. But swords, I was not too worried about because of their lack of kill zone potential (at least a low level). Now, I think people have a health fear of any weapon, even a knife. I agree that the people you face is far more of a threat, but weapons should be lethal, any weapon.
(6) This is your best argument. I had not considered that many of the crits are not lethal. However, you overlooked something. If 10% of your hits are crits then how come 0% of my hits with my short sword are crits. Even in Arduin, you always have a chance of a crit. You should always have a chance. Furthermore, crits deal double damage. Thus, even if I didn't kill my foe, they went down. Furthermore, they did things like "Arm Chopped Off" and such that you can never do as a journeymen in FanWar and even if not lethal, you are down! Perhaps a nice solution is that kill zone takes you to -2 instead of outright killing you, which is more like a crit. That would require some reworking of the system, but it would be much less lethal. Something to think about.
(7) Nobody likes dieing, but my point is that dieing is not nearly as big a deal in FanWar as it is in real life. If you die in real life, well, there's your grave. But in FanWar players can die twenty times and still be walking around just fine due to potions, Hari-Kari, or just a habit of disappearing when the death bag comes out... My goal is not to make FanWar MORE lethal, but to make it at least AS lethal as real combat since dieing doesn't matter as much. The purpose of (7) in my argument is to point out that people who are trying to argue that 1 hit kill zone too lethal are missing the point that FanWar is currently less lethal than real combat AND we get to be resurrected all the time!
( 8 ) : Yes, Mages can't wear helms, so they have to be careful like they always are. Mages should be able to be killed with a shot to the neck, whereas the Knight can take it due to armor. As Vlad says, "No matter how subtle the mage, a knife between the shoulder blades will certainly cramp his style."
(9) : I totally agree with you on Martial Arts. Not a problem, they were lethal from the start if you had Weapon Dedication for hands anyway...
(10) : I agree with you here as well, 1 in the front, 2 in the back is too particular.
(11) A new advantage to 1 hit kill zone is silence. Being able to quietly stab someone in the kill zone and not have to make a sound makes Assassins way cooler. Everyone knows that calling out damage or "Dispatch." Causes people to turn around on the attack when in reality no Assassin shouts out their attack. Thus, being able to Kill Zone without having to say anything makes for strategic attacks like firing an arrow at someone a short range without saying anything because you can drop them and no one will see you. Or hiding in the grass and as the party looks around you pop up, tag someone in the back kill zone and duck back down. One player dead and no one the wiser! Now this is more realistic, especially for night missions.
(12) A new point to be made. Before we get into more banter about details, consider the following. Strip away everything from FanWar except for the Mechanics of combat. Image a purely Journeymen world with no magic, no Class skills. That system, the purely journeymen system, should reflect the real world as exactly as it can if the rest of the skills are going to make sense. Thus, our goal here should not be to figure out if Mages are too weak, or Assassins too strong. Our goal should be to make the core rules as realistic as possible so that the world is real and the combat as real as can be. Focus on this. I am not set on the 1 hit kill zone, it is just a solution to the problem of a lack of realism where swords are concerned, it is an attempt to model reality better. If anyone has a better way to do that, step up. I am happy to hear your arguments, but not if they do not reflect reality.
Perhaps only Wade, Clay, Brandon and Robert remember the Regen. system we use to use. It was a system that was flawed at the core, because it did not resemble real combat at the core. Instead of attacking, and killing people, you had to hit them, wait for them to get up, run away for a few seconds because they were invincible for 5 seconds and then you could try to hit them again. This is the sort of thing we are trying to steer clear of. We abandoned that system because we realized that we kept trying to fix it to make it more real, and the problem was that it did not lend itself to reality! We kept changing things and adding things but it never was very good because the system itself was just wrong. I am not saying that 2 damage kill zone is that ludicrous. I am saying that we want to make our arguments and changes based on what the real world is like so that the whole system makes sense, and then add magic and special things on top that alter that real life base. Yes, higher level characters should be able to kill people easier, no one is debating that. We are debating the core system.
So here is my question for you. How is it realistic that swords, javelins, and a myriad of other weapons cannot kill someone with one hit, when in the real world they can. If we persist in trying to maintain a world where the fundamental laws of combat are so bent, then we end up with characters having ludicrous conversation like "well I knew he couldn't kill me with that broadsword so I just let him stick it in me a couple times and then I hit him with my flail." The game should feel real at the core, it should model real combat at the core, so that when two people pick up weapons and go at it, real tactics and real skill are needed, not meta-gaming skills like "he can't kill zone me." When the core is real, the rest of the skills make so much more sense. We should first and foremost look at the core, and once it makes sense, then make adjustment to the classes if need be to rebalanced them, but working from a foundation that is flawed sets the whole structure on its edge.

Christopher