At some point though I don't think changing the level of the baddies will make much of a difference. The other day a party of four PCs (I think first in a class) took on 28 journeymen goblins and 3 hobgoblins. Even though there were only four of us goblins at a time they could hardly handle us. I don't think putting the goblins in a class would have helped much, or been realistic. (I know this solution isn't going for realism, but it isn't something we can ignore.) If a tenth level goblin is swinging a sword at you, you can block it. If seven goblins are swinging at you, there isn't much you can do.
Giving people more skills isn't always helpful. There is a good chance that either the person won't remember their skills or that the PC's will be able to negate them in some way. And, if the the baddie started at a high level it won't even make much of a difference. One time we took on a ship full of high level dwarves. We won because there was only four baddies. Had those four been higher level we still, most likely, would have won; but, if there were fifteen dwarves at once we wouldn't have stood a chance.

I'm sure that in some situations changing the baddies levels could help, but in other situations I don't see it doing neatly as much as it should.

Number of Baddies!

I am just back from the HSC conference and let me tell you, no where is this more true that at that level. I ran a class with 60 (yes sixty!) players. We actually had 30 goblins attacking 30 Journeymen and Lanelle is right, there is no way to simulate that many people coming at you with swords, you are just going to die! It was incredible, awesome, tiring, and amazing that we pulled it off. Next year we will do smaller, more specific classes with more space, but it was something to see!
I think that Lanelle is onto something about numbers of baddies being something you cannot simulate with levels. Another factor is the "healing other players" factor. When you have 30 players, 10 can be healing wounded players while another 10 fight, so it ends up being even MORE effective. Thus, perhaps the solution to not enough baddies is rather than increase the lvl, up the respawns to simulate healing of other monsters and the sheer mass of baddies. We could also play with respawn time. We could make the time to respawn a factor of how many players you are down. With a really big horde, the respawns could be INSTANTANEOUS so that you just pop up like a Auto Rebirth and lay on. THoughts?

Christopher

lol you had to quote that didn't you. I guess you deserve it.

Back in the old days for Ampt Guard, when dealing with the need for a horde on the offensive we solved that problem like so. Each wave increases in levels and difficulty. EX. 30 enemies, divide them into groups of 5 or 6 and say that marching is done by each wave. Each weave will be at least 1 level higher than the previous. As for respawns, take time with it and simply keep the waves coming until all those of that level are actually killed for sure. I may be off but hey its a suggestion.

I don't think that would be as realistc or challenging though. It could also get complicated. Why would stupid things like goblins and orks have a marching order? And, why would smart things wait for an entire wave to die until they stepped in to do something. No one of normal intelligence would watch their friend get killed before doing something. Besides, the point is not always to completely kill everything we face.
As we already know, sheer numbers do make a large difference. But, even putting that aside, I don't think that one level per wave would make much of a difference in some situations. If you were facing 30 journeman goblins (six waves of five) only the last wave would be in a class, and even then only first level. In contradt, it could sometimes be too difficult. If you were to face 30 goblins that started at 5th level you would eventuall be taking on 5th in a class goblins, some with auras, after already taking a beating from the lower level ones. And that many goblins shouldn't be that high in a class. It's just wrong.
I also think that having baddies level up at each wave would be hard for any new players playing the baddies becasue they would need to know not only what skills they have but when they get each one and when they get what mana and HP bonuses. They would also need to remember what skills they don't have at what point.

Not to mention the steady shift in worth of items and equipment. As I said before, there is almost no exception to having the advantage of numbers. Calculating a general shift in the strength and respawns of the baddies can't really be uniform it has to be taken case by case. Though this is difficult, I think it would more difficult to create an algorithm that compute the strenghts and weaknesses of the situation plus the strengths and weaknesses of the actual players (which is a fact that cannot be ignored). Say you have a 2 on 2 situation where there are two goodies with only two people to play numerous baddies. now if they are all low level then a slighter shift in the level of the baddies can make a big difference, where as if they are all high level a more drastic shift in power would be needed to make a difference as in this situation respawns become less efective. also think of this situation where they are all low level but the goodies are of low to moderate skill, where as the baddies are experienced players who know how handle this type of situation, just using those players for the baddies tips the scale in their favor changing the dynamic of this fight. Now we shift over to a game where you have large numbers of goodies and baddies and roughly the same number of each, a slight shift in level or adding one or two experienced players to the baddies won't make that much of a difference and more drastic measures might be neccissary. I don't want to be a downer but personally I can't comprehend a 2 + 3 = 5 - 4 = 1 deal that can quantify all of the individual details and I still think it needs to be a judgment call on the GM to guesstimate what would equate out to the same difficulty. oh well. though I suppose if one tries to then the only helpful advice I can come up with is that Nothing is the same as sheer numbers, if your baddies are at a number disadvantage where they should be at a number advantage then drastic shifts are necissary (especially if the is coming in regimented waves (when you have that whole military dicipline thing going on, and yes nell even an intelligent person can be taught not to break ranks even when his buddy is dying right in front of him) where the goodies can systematically overwhelm the enemy over and over again.)

Usually in fanwar tie goes to the loser, which would be the goodie. I think that in cases where baddies have multiple respawns we should have tie go to the baddie. This is just a start, but would be a way of giving them slightly better attack and defense.

Good notes everybody.

I agree with much of what is said here an mostly with the fact that sheer numbers is in and of itself almost impossible to simulate, but I think I am on to something that might work.
Speed and Location of Respawns: Of course a GM needs to way the experience and number dispairity between goodies and baddies. Assuming a GM has done that, a good system for simulating a horde might be to not only speed up the respawns to virtually instantaneous but also to give the baddies an OUT of game movement bonus- or no exact respawning point. Since we can't simulate the amount of weapons that would be coming at you, we could give the baddies the power to once down, either pop up immediately or go OUT of game until they want to respawn. This would be more like fighting Specters that can pop in and out while your back is turned and IS far more realistic even if you think it is too powerful. During the HSC conference I can't tell you how many times I got jumped from behind (and that is ME, an experience fighter) because I was so focused on the hordes ahead of me. We should playtest this at the next event.
Another solution I though of is the shotgun archer approach. We could assume that a certain percentage of the baddies are archers, assign one player to be the archers and then let them Multishot 10-15 arrows on the melee whenever they so desire. This method could be extended to all missile attacks- spells too and the person being Missile Attacks could be multi-casting spells and mixing them in with arrows to make it really messy. I think this solution is best left to the GM but is certainly something worth keeping in your bag of tricks. I have used it before with good effect, we just might want to stancardize it a bit.

Christopher

the only problem with mixing spellstones in with arrows would be that you would never know what hit you all you would feel is a packet hitting you and when you look to see what hit you there are arrows and a death ray and two flame rays on the ground you dont know what hit you especially since there would be no incant.and what if there was a barbarian in the group whose only job is to hunt and kill the archers, and if there is one person being 10 archers that is so unrealistic its almost sad 10 archers wouldnt stand in a group to get slaughtered they would scater in every directon

I really like Chris' idea of GM's using their own bag of tricks to deal with this. The GM can choose whichever ones are most appropriate to any given encounter (the one guy out of game with the arrow bucket for the brigade of archers in the distance or the almost-instant respawns for the horde of goblins etc). I think using tricks like those to simulate the numbers would work WAY better than any awkward and unrealistic level fudging. They sound way more fun and interesting too! It'd also be a good way to add some more variety to encounter.

So, after the recent influx of younger kids wanting to play Fanwar, Chris came up with the idea of a Junior League, with simplified rules, for people under 12. After discussing it with me, and a little with Bobo, Nell and Tyson, this is what we've come up with:

-1 hit system, you're "wounded" (aka unconscious) if you take any damage

-Anyone can First Aid, RoR is always 20

-You can only die from Death Ray (and special NPC things), possibly a way to kill people with a weapon? (Call "Killing Blow, one two three" when they're wounded or something like that?)

-Resurrect and Rebirth exist only in the form of scrolls, which can be bought from town (Life Mage's Guild) and only useable by mages

-If an entire party is wounded, time passes and one person wakes up, effectively at -2 (they can fight, but can't move, and can First Aid themselves back to normal)

-Equipment can only be bought in "sets" for 8 gold each. Journeymen get 1 free set to start with and can trade any set in for any other set. People can mix and match, but they still have to buy the full set of whatever they want to use.
Equipment sets:
Soldier - Short Sword, Buckler
Footman - Flail, Large Shield
Shieldman - Tower Shield, Knife (throwable? I forget)
Bushi - Wakizashi or Katana
Pikeman - Spear or Javelin
Pirate - Broadsword, Throwing Dagger
Axeman - Axe
Bowman - Bow, 5 arrows

-Armor buying and armor restrictions for classes are the same as normal Fanwar

-All 15 classes exist, but have very simplified skill sets; there are two "Tiers," one at 1st level and one at 5th level

Barbarian
Tier 1: Hack
Tier 2: Spell Immunity

Samurai
Tier 1: Duel
Tier 2: Bow Out

Veteran
Tier 1: Brace
Tier 2: AV=0 Immunity

Knight
Tier 1: Charge
Tier 2: Armor Piercing (2-handed weapons are AV=0)

Paladin
Tier 1: Jumpstart Heal
Tier 2: Spell-Turning Shield

Assassin
Tier 1: Martial Arts
Tier 2: Weapon Mastery

Amazon
Tier 1: Throwing Training (All thrown weapons are AV=0)
Tier 2: Flying

Archer
Tier 1: Missile Disarm
Tier 2: ? (Didn't think of one yet)

Thief
Tier 1: Hide
Tier 2: Flash Ball

Ranger
Tier 1: ? (I forgot)
Tier 2: Spell Turning Weapons

Flame Mage
Tier 1: Flame Ray, Fireball
Tier 2: Elder Sorcery

Storm Mage
Tier 1: Lightning Ray, Ice Ball (for your RoR)
Tier 2: Elder Sorcery

Life Mage
Tier 1: Medicine Ball, Light Ray (for your RoR)
Tier 2: Elder Sorcery

Necromancer
Tier 1: Terror Ball (only Life mages can heal it), Death Ray (Necros, undead, etc. are still immune)
Tier 2: Elder Sorcery

Nature Mage
Tier 1: Empathic Ray (you're wounded for your RoR when cast), Tree Form Ball (as if through a Mage Lore Ball)
Tier 2: Elder Sorcery

-Elder Sorcery will be EXTREMELY limited. Each player gets 1 spell only, with an OP Limit (haven't completely worked this out, maybe roll a random OP (with OP 1 being the most likely) and have the player choose from that?)

That's all we've got so far. Obviously this will require a LOT of playtesting to ensure game balance. Thoughts?

How about Snare for Ranger? And Multi-Shot for Archers would be cool, and maybe it should be the first tier one. Or do you have to be an Archer to even use a bow? Can anyone buy that set if they want? I think they should be able to.

The only thing I saw that I thought was off was Knight. It seems like Armor Piercing kinda just obsoletes Charge. I don't know what else to give them though. Maybe a strength skill. They could use two handed weapons in one hand (then again, are they big enough to?)It could work out well in role play to, being able to lift things and roll boulders aside and carry more people.

Well, we're trying to stay away from too many "called" skills, that affect other players directly. It's less confusing if the only person who has to know what the skill does is the player who uses it, which is why there's lots of immunities and such. Snare might still work, since it's kinda self-explanatory.

As for Multi-shot, Chris brought up a really good point. If there are "upgraded" skills, like Multishot or Stealth or whatever, other kids will see them using it and assume that's how the normal skill works. So we're also trying not to have any of those either.

I don't think Charge becomes completely obsolete. They'd still need to use it if they wanted a 1-handed weapon (and since there's no other Knight skills, there's no real other advantage to using a two-handed weapon). Plus, in a 1-hit system, shields are REALLY useful. We thought about Improved Strength, but since there's no damage in this version, compared to the other Tier 2 skills like Elder Sorcery or Spell Immunity, the roleplay benefits don't really make up for it.

Something else to think about is monster abilities. What still exists? Are undead still as cool? I'm sure the GM could wing it at first on a case-by-case basis, but it would be nice to have it written down at some point.