I say add endurance because I think that would be VERY useful and then combine body endure with endure and just make it where every you are hit that part or the body is hacked so if you get unfortunate enough for it to be in the torso you can't move and if the damage is on the limb then it gets hacked.

Thanks for the input Marcus. If I were to do that, it sound like it would be easiest to put Endurance at 1st lvl and the combo of the other two up where Body Endure is so it isn't too confusing for newbies. However, Body Endure/Endure would be really useful for a lot of classes and they won't be able to get it if it is up that high. If we reverse them, Endurance seems like a pretty crappy 6th in a class In skill if you ask me. What are we do to with that. Ideas?

Christopher

whatever we choose, i don't think it should make it into this verion of the rule book because we have too many ideas and not enough time to really think through all of them.
I like combining endure and body endure, but i think that combining them makes it too cool for first level, but i really want endure to stay a first level sill so other classes can easily get it. I never really cared enough to go up ranger till 6th to get body endure, and i don't think you should have to wait that long before you can gt any kind of endure.

I have to agree that any changes to endure should be saved for play-testing season. There are too many unknowns as of now on how a new endure would run, and since the book will be at the printers before this Tuesday(build party) we can't use it to play-test any ideas for endure.

Fair enough. I can simply keep Endure as it for now. If anyone comes up with a smashing new idea, post it here. I might be able to change Endure after Tuesday if we playtest something we really like, so don't cross it off just yet. What about the other issues. Cost of Magic Items changed to Days, etc.

Christopher

Simple Endure Mod:

I think I have a simple Endure solution that might be easy to implement and work well. Here it is:

Endure: IC. Cost: 1 mana. You may spend a mana to make your limbs resistant to damage for the encounter. You may use this skill IC in response to an attack by calling "Endure" and spending a mana.

So here is how it would work. It is like an Enchant Creature with Flash. You can turn it on at the start of the battle if you like, so you don't forget, but then you are out the mana (all badies will do this, because it is easier). But, if you want to play a bit more complex, you can wait until you take damage on the limb, or even wait until a really big hit, and then call Endure and spend the mana which makes all your limbs resist the damage for the rest of the Encounter. This version gives us both the simplicity we are after (turn it on at start for baddies etc.) and the complexity we like about Endures reactive nature (it can still be used to surprise!). Since there is no Hack drawback, it will see more use, but the Mana cost will keep it from being abused. Yes, with Combat Discipline someone could use this skill in every battle, all the time. But all it does is give them Super Chain. The veteran is the same at that level- but in Full Plate! If they want to waste Combat Discipline on Endure instead of Shatter or Avoid, be my guest. This version mimics Transmute (Knight Skill) in that it can be used in a battle, but is more commonly used just before things heat up. These sorts of abilities are great for baddies because I can just tell them "you have 4 more HP" or "your limbs don't take damage" We don't have to worry about when to use it, how to use it or why to use it.

Christopher

I like it simple fix and makes everyone happy AND it is a resistance. What level would it be one?

It would be level one, giving first level players something to use mana on. I don't know what we would do with Body Endure, but that is not as important as it is higher up. We could just keep it the same or add Endurance to it.

Ok we tried out the new style of endure, and it seems way to powerful to me, a skill that low of level should not be that powerful. A First level ranger is like "Resist Damage on Limbs for an Encounter? for a Mana? Awesome! I can block _____ with my arms!" way to powerful, doesn't match the power progression of other classes at level one.

I agree, I nearly broke my ankle trying to take down Robert Page as a ranger- he was taking NO DAMAGE whatsoever on his limbs, and even when I tried to go for his middle all he had to do was put an arm in the way and it did nothing.- so even though I was doing 4 AV=0 magic it did no good.
My vote is that it is so overpowering as to be unbalancing

Endure and Body Endure etc.

Well, the books are done (a lot faster than the last place I had them done, and a lot better). I put in a few last minute adds as you will see, but to summarize here they are.

Optional Ranged Attack System (in the GM Guide): We ditched the first idea, and came up with one way better on Tuesday. Basically it works like Souring. If you want to use Ranged Attacks you are considered 'too far away' for anything but shot attacks (bows). You are standing near by but no one can do anything to you. You fire your arrows at people as normal, but they can't hit you. Much more LARP! If someone wants to rush you, they approach your area, count up to the designated number (10 feet per second) and then can battle you in Melee (this is the basic Circle of protection mechanic). Thus we combined Circle of Protection mechanics and Souring Mechanics to get a perfect hybrid. So far, works really well!

Endure and Body Endure: Wade came in the evening and we talked at Starbucks and I came up with a great solution while talking to him. We have both done a lot of battles over time, so we know what the underlying problem with Endure is, it makes you into a target. Thus, I came up with a new version that keeps it the same, but makes it more usuable, as follows. I combined Endure and Body Endure and made them passive. You do not call Endure anymore. You simple say "reduced" if you chose to use the ability on that attack, so they know you took less damage, but, and most importantly, they don't know what you did. They don't know you hacked your arm/leg/body. All they know is that the attack didn't work. That is much more intimidating than calling "Endure! my limb is useless!" which was in invitation for someone to rush you. Now, you can play it off like you are fine, and simply retreat, with them non-the-wiser and go heal yourself or get healing. It is subtle difference, but I think it will make a huge change in combat. Also, by including Body Endure in it, it is easier for new players to learn "if you get hit, you can just loose the use of that area instead of taking the damage." No, on the limbs only, etc. It also makes it great for Warriors with a lot of armor who want to use it when the do finally get hit in zone 4, and for mages it is awesome!

So, what did I do with Body Endure at lvl 6? I made a new skill called Stamina. It is a combination of Endurance, and the Adrenaline for Mana. You have Endurance and can operate normally down to -2 mana, though you still die at -3 mana, and still have an Insanity Count the whole time.

There are other little fixes you will see, but that is all the big news for now.

Updates, Revisions and to Helms, Peacekeeper and Necro Revamps:

We had the first all day adventure day at Low Gap today, and had a pretty low turnout. We did a bunch of adventures but also worked on a lot of neat fixes and items. Here is a summary:

[1] New Helms: I made a new helm design which Jeanine started cutting out. It looks like the Elven Helms from LOTR with great visibility and good speech. A big improvement. I plan to make some more new ones and modify the old ones for better speech as well.

[2] New ruling on Peacekeeper and other outs: We hit upon a very, very cool new format for Peacekeeper and several other OUTS. Many of you already know that we changed Peacekeeper so that it just detects lies, not truth. Thus, if someone it too high to tell, you just know that it does not detect as a lie, though you don't know that they are too high to tell. Adding onto that, we now have a new way that Peacekeeper operates which is a reactive, passive type use. Instead of saying "Peacekeeper lvl 32, Did you kill this man?" and then the person phrasing a very confusing response, you can now use Peacekeeper after someone makes a statement. Thus, someone can come into town and say, "I just saw this big serpent eat your friend down by the river!" and you can say, "Peacekeeper lvl 32, does that read as true to me?" and the player then has to say "Yes" or "No." Furthermore, they don't know you are using the ability. It is just an ability to sense if they seem to be lying to you. They might continue feeding you a line, never suspecting that you have Peacekeeper high enough to detect their falsehood, until it it too late. Lastly, this also means that Peacekeeper also becomes a matter of personal assessment, not some magical ability, and does not hold up in court as their is no way to know someone is using it. Thus, no one can say "Peacekeeper lvl 80, Did you kill this man?" and then everyone hears your reponse knowing that it is under a lvl 80 Peacekeeper. The Peacekeeper ability is just a measure of your ability to sense the falsehood of their statements, and thus is not know to other players. The realization of this use opened up a lot of skills to be used this way. Cortessian, Merchant, Jester, and many others suggest uses that are out of game calls etc. Thus, as a rule, uses of Trade Crafts are not In Game knowledge, but rather GM and player information to adjudicate reaction. It the Samurai says, "He is lying." you will have to either take the Samurai word for it, or make your own judgement, since you don't have any knowledge of how good a Peacekeeper he is, or what level he used, or anything of that nature.

[3] Necro Revisions: I really wanted to revise Necromancer before the books were printed but I never got to. The problem with them is twofold, they are two cool, and thus not cool enough. While that seems like a contradtiction what it boils down to it that Necros have so much synergy with there skills that they work flawlessly. They kill with a ray, Bury to contain you, Animate you, power you up, and use you indefinitly and all at now cost, since Bury Elite gives all the mana you could ever need, as does Combat Discipline for Necro. Furthermore, there is no escape from the Necro. While it use to be that you only had a little time to Bury people because they would leave their body, now, the Necro just snatches you with spirit guide and then that is worse that being buried (he gets all your stuff, no once can rebirth you, and his undead can now give you infinit deaths!). Thus, the escape that was suppose to keep Bury and Animate Dead from being too powerful actually is worse that being Buries and Animated. Since you are dead, both of these skill always work! You can't dodge them, and since your dead you have none of your resistences! The unfair advantage makes the Necro too formidable. Finally, once he gets Necrosavant and cane make numerous undead, the game system no longer supports him. Suddenly he should have an army of Zombies or skeletons, but we never have that many players, and who wants to play the Necros mininons all day anyway! Suddenly, when the Necro should be at his peak, he can't possibly do what the book says he can, and the game system grinds to a halt. Even with Animate Dead alone, I loose baddies to the other side that I need as respawns. The game balance is tenuous enough with one baddy shifting over mid combat, not five or even ten, and then I can't even give the Necro the power he deserves in that fight.
So, here are the fixes that Cora, Jeanine, Brandon and I have come up with. Some of them are simple and can be implemented immediately. Others require a greater consideration of In Game effect and game ballance. See below:

[Simple changes we have already agreed on]:
Undead Respawns now reads "Max= Rarity lvl of Undead" instead of "Necro lvl." I think it is hard enough to have to kill an Apparition 1 time let alone 15 times if it is lvl 15, but the cost is the same to the Necro! Thus, caping the number of respawns at the Undead Rarity alows for Vampires to cap at 7 respawns. Frankly, I think that is plenty of times to have to kill it!
Spirit Guide does not allow you to detain spirits. You can carry a spirit, but only if it is willing, much the same way you can carry a player, but not if they don't want you to, they just push you away.
[Moderate change we mostly agree on]:
Bury has a time limit to work. You must use Bury on a player within their ROR or it has no effect. This does not mean that a player has left their body, they are still in their, but you lost that chance to do anything to them and inprison them. They are safe and beyond your reach though they haven't left their items etc. Yes, you could carry their body, etc. but we already do this when players don't have Loot. It still means you only get the one player, not all of them. This would limit how much players get from Bury and force it to be used In Combat as well as safeguard players items, and souls unless the Necro actually gets to them during the combat and has the time to Bury them while the fight is on. Since Bury is In Combat, this makes sense. Since it is so powerful and is used on Dead Players, it also makes sense to give player some recourse and safety from it.
[Big changes we like but need to think on]:
The problem of armies of undead controlled by a necro being unable to be played in game needs to be solved still but how. It doesn't seem fair to give Necros an ability and then say, "But you can't really do that." Thus, we need a solution and we have come up with two I like.
(1): The Host Undead Solution: This solution would allow a Necro to "inhabit" his Undead and thus play them. He does this by going Etherial, which under the new rules he takes all his stuff with him and goes into his Skeleton. At that point he sees, hears, and plays as the Skeleton instead of himself. This is cool for him because he is very safe, has respawns, and abilities he would no otherwise have. It is not so cool for him because he can't use his spells and such, but that is a minor setback. The fix would allow Necros to really put their Undead to the best use instead of hoping that the player who they Animate will no how to be a Skull Warrior well. Furthermore, it saves me players. I would no longer need someone to play the Skeleton, since the Necro would be doing it! The only disadvantage to this that I see is that the Necro might be too safe, and that once they get to Necrosavant we still have the same problem unless we do away with having more than one Undead at a time. If this rule is adopted, you can still Animate a Zombie and have them fight for you etc. But you can also elect to Use Etherial Travel once you are OUT of game to go inside and control them and the you just play the undead, more like Polymorph.
(2) The Trash Undead Solution: This solution supposes that Animate Dead and Undead Respawns and Necrosavant are the quick and dirty ways to make an undead, not the real way, which is Elder Sorcery. Thus, Animate Dead can only make an undead for one encounter, no matter how many Respawns you have, or if you have Necrosavant or anything. This would mean you can never take an undead from one encounter to the next, or use them over time. You enter every battle with none, if you can kill something you Animate it, pump it up and watch it kill the rest of the monsters etc, or maybe even make a bunch of them if you are a Necrosavant, but they cannot last. They are only for this moment and will soon fall to the earth, useless. The advantage to this fix is that no one has to play the hordes of undead because they only appear during combat and then only for a short while until the battle is over. If you can actually animate players, then fine, but I always get my baddies back for the next fight, and game ballance is maintained. The disadvantage is that the game world has presuposed so far that Undead can be made by Animate Dead alone and this would no longer be true. Since Animate Dead, undead Respawns and Necrosavant are all In Combat skills, this version would seem to imply that they are not the forever and a day type effects and only temporay uses. Considering how powerful they are, I would say that seems pretty fair.

These last two solutions need some careful consideration. I like them both but would love to hear other peoples opinions on them.

Last, but not least. Jeanine came up with a cool simplification of the entire Undead system which would be great except I just printed the books. I am not going to change it now but I wanted everyone to consider how much simpler it would be if Animate Dead just made you an Undead version of your Species Type. Instead of having 30 or so Undead you have to know, you could just have Undead Templates like "Zombify, Skeletal, Spectral, etc." When you got animated you could just continue as you were with no class lvls etc but add in simple effects like Instant Etherial or Immune to Arrows and not need to learn every type of undead. Part of the problem with Animate Dead is that we never changed it into an OUT skill like we did Polymorph. You have plenty of time to learn what you can do with Polymorph because you are OUT of game. But Animate Dead give players no time to learn what they can do and thus they cannot play what they are to full effect even if they wanted to. This would suggest that the Trash Undead Solution is a good one, along with the Host Undead Solution as well.

Christopher

I really like the "Trash Undead" solution, because yeah you can do it with eldar sorcery, there is the word Reanimate in necro words so trash works, it's how it should be, i mean if you have raised an army of undead you done it with raw magic not pre-made spells. and maybe we should change necrosavant so you can only have as many undead as Rareity= X , X= your level in Necromancer. as an add on to the skill of course. Add to the fact of the Templet idea, i really like it, it makes it so you study the templet not the finished product, and you might screw up in the creation your first cupple times, after all you are used to the crap zombie templet.

Something I failed to mention above is that a combo option for Necro could also work. We could implement the Trash Undead system AND allow Necros to use them as a Host for better playability and to save on baddies. This might be the perfect combination to get everything we want. One note I think is that I don't think it will work to have to use Etherial Travel to host an Undead, because that is an OUT skill and the Trash Undead would fall apart by the time you used it. So perhaps we should just say that when used that way, Etherial Travel to Host a creature is just OUT, not ten minutes, meaning you just have to get out of combat with your undead and then you can become it.

Christopher

i like the trash undead etherel controll combo, but what would then happen to necrosevant? just take away the ability to make more than one undead?