I agree with all the changes and such but Giant Growth.... I don't think the problem is in giant growth but in Giant Strength. Also Doug and I really really like Endure Idea 3. A Lot. but beyond that i really like.

Giant Growth and Endure:

Endure: I agree that #3 is cool, but maybe too cool. It also only negates other skills. Does nothing on its own... still, simple and effective, like Magic Resistance.

I forgot to mention Giant Growth in my post! We tried out Snare Touch UB and it worked alright. Pins a leg for their ROR. Become cool with Mage Lore Balls! Mostly it was just okay and the Knight gets it with shield now so we were on the fence. But tonight I came up with a way cooler version....

Earthbind (Touch- UB): Tag a player (UB) and call "Earthbind: I immobilize you for your ROR- loose flying!" Any player tagged is immobilized, cannot move from their spot as impale, and looses flying for their ROR.

thoughts? how long should it last. Does it stop Instant Etherial... losts of possibilites here.

I really like the Earthbind idea, it makes the who's choice of leg problem that we had not happen and in flavor it's like the earth or plant roots are grabbing your legs and holding you down... though i don't think it would stop instant etherial unless it reaches into even the etherial plan, which a nature spell shouldn't IMHO. if a goast isn't stopped by even a stone wall what are some little plant roots a earth stopping him from moveing.

Earthbind:

Yes, I agree that it doesn't seem likely to stop Etherial, but then, Green is opposed to Black so that makes some sense. Mainly, the idea is that it binds them to the ground. The fact that they loose flying, etc. is reminder text and important for this spell. Snare just pins a flying creature in the air. Earthbind actually states that they loose flying and thus can be a very effective weapon if used right. On a side note, immobilized is actually not as good a Snare. immobilized says you must be stationary (but you can do anything you want while you are- jump, spin, rotate, etc. Snare specifically says you cannot move a specific leg. That makes fighting hard. In retrospect it seems like Earthbind should Snare a leg AND they loose flying. Mostly it will be used to Snare people, but the added effect of loosing flying will make it a decisively better Snare (and it should be, it is a spell). Hitting that player who is beginning to Soar is going to be a prime directive. And with Mage Lore Balls, watch out. I like Earthbing because there is currently no way to stop a critter from flying or to drop them once they are other than raw damage and attacks. This way, Flying creatures (which there are a lot of) can be brought down by a Nature Mage. And Flying Natrure Mages will be effective weapons against other flyer's.

Still don't have any good solutions to Endure other than what has already been mentioned. Personally, I think the problem with Endure is that what it does it not that desirable accept in extreme situations. For example, I get hit on the leg for 4 with a Flame Ray. I can go down (and be unconscious) or I can take nothing, Endure and limp. While this sounds cool, it is usually a recipe for getting killed. Yes I took nothing, and not I can try to limp away? Or continue to right you without a leg, or an arm. Personally I think most players would rather just be down that take a Hack, as then they get mobbed and often killed outright. There are so many better skills that reduce the damage or prevent it altogether that Endure is the last one to use. Something else that should be considered is that this is a Semi Skill. Mages can get it. And they should want to. Since they don't have a lot of HP the current Endure could be usefuel. Idea #3 is awesome for a Mage, (especially if it protects from Vitals Hacks- to loss of tongue!). The Cap damage one would be nice for mages as well. There have been only a few times in FanWar where I have seen the current Endure used effectively, and even then, they were extreme and often just delayed the inevitable. Endure is cool if someone chops you in the arm for 10, you endure, and kill them with your other hand, and they were the last opponent. But since it doesn't stop Slay anymore, this is much less likely. Any new ideas on how to make Endure Passive, or at least easier to use. Thoughts.

Christopher

you could always change the text back to "endure your limb is useless" and it isn't considered damage you just need to be healed. That way it makes it so slay and other skills like that doesn't work anymore . The main turn off to endure this year was it didn't really stop the other effects (like slay or you can't be healed in minutes, etc.) to a point it stopped damage but if something dealt a large amount of damage it is likely it can deal it again so like you said a temp fix. If you want a way you can balance it out make a time restriction on how long it takes for the limb to be able to be healed.

Last Call on Endure:

So, I need to take the book to the printer this week and I need to know what Endure should do. If I get no response, I will leave it as it is. Here are the other choices:

Endure: Resistant to hacks.
Endure: Cap 1 on limbs.
Endure: Hacks deal no damage (just the hack)
Endure: limbs resist damage for your ROR
Endure: Like Armor Wound, does not matter where you were damaged, just shunt it to a limb (i.e. if you are hit for 10 in the chest, call "Endure" and pick a limb to be Hacked instead).

Here are my thoughts on the skill. Currently, hacking yourself seems a lot worse than taking damage. There are very few situation (boulders, giant strength, bellows fireball, etc.) where Endure an attack makes any sense. Usually if I Endure on my arm, I die within seconds. If I Endure on my leg, I die almost as fast. Body Endure is cool, but that is because there is no limit to it and it just immobilizes you, you can still fight. Thus, though I like sticking with the way a skill use to work, I think we might want to completely rethink Endure and what it SHOULD do, not what it does.

Christopher

Cap 1 on limbs sounds ok to me but i would like to wait and here what others think

I like limbs resist damage for ROR. Or if it is hack would the hack count as damage to things like slay and stuff? That was the main concern like I said why endure got so unpopular

Endure:

Yes, currently, damage to that you Endure still has Modifiers, like Slay, and so you can't get around it (which is how Keri Solie died, he could have Endured it, but it wouldn't have mattered, it was Slay." I don't think we should be worried about whether or not Endure could save your life verses a slay, that is beside the point. If the only reason to have a skill is in case you get slayed on the limb, I say it is not a good first level skill. We need something that newbies can grasp. All of this "prevents slay, etc. hacked, etc." is great for Body Endure, up where experience players will grab it and run, but when I say, be something first in a class, who is going to get "Endure" because I might get slayed in the arm! Frankly, I would like to know how often Enduring a slay to the arm saved anyones life. The next attack is likely to be just as lethal and you have nothing to block with! Yes, I know there have been times. But they are infrequent. About as often as Reflect Magic has been useful (and that is 9th lvl). So lets think of something simple and useful.

Christopher

P.S. I ran into Brandon today and he suggested making Endure into the Mutant ability Endurance (you never tire from running, or carrying, always catch up to fleeing opponents etc.). It was a new idea, so I wanted to post it.

New Additions to the Rule Book:

I have been working to get the Rulebook ready to print and the following are some new sections of note for your review. Please add any comments or thoughts you have on them.
---------------------------------

All touch spells are now UB (healing touch, Tree Form etc.) However, I did notice that several spells we use as touch spells are not. Rebirth is not a touch spell. It reads "Invoke and place both hands on dead player." Thus, that will be enforced, harshly. Bury is the same. Thus, anything that says tag a player in it, is considered a touch and is UB. If it says put both hands on, etc. then it is not UB.

Invoking! I have written this into the bold part of every spell that requires it. Something of a reminder to us all to enforce Envoking for such things are Rebirth, Bury, Animate Dead, all the Aura's. etc.

I added a new section on social status and plan to implement this more with character names. I hope to enforce characters adding rank to thier names and requiring their use so we can have more of a fuedal society happening. I also changes and elaborated on the definitions of each.

"Free Holder: Your family owns a small bit of land or building. You are free to choose to follow in their footsteps or aspire to something greater. You will have no additional duties or requirements or dues.
Commoner: Your family owns nothing, they live day to day. You are likely their hope for the future. You have been brought up poor. You are free to make a new life, though it will be difficult given your rank. You are below Freeholders and thus almost everyone looks down on you.
Tenant: A farmer/workers child you are owned by the local lords. You cannot leave the area or seek a profession without their leave. Even if you do, you are still a tenant and bound to the service of the local lords.
Man at Arms: Bound into service as the tenant, your life is not your own. You have shown promise as a warrior in the service of the realm. Perhaps your family were also Men at Arms or you have recently been brought up in rank from another station. You may not leave the province without leave and can be Guild Ordered by any warrior class of the region. You will start with Knockout, and First Aid. You are required to become a Warrior at lvl 6.
Craftsmen: Better off than most, your family has a skill at a particular trade or craft. You are expected to follow in their footsteps and become a master of said skill as well. If, at that time you wish to take up another profession, you can speak to your family about it, who will make the decision. Roll randomly for your family trade/craft. You will have 4 levels in that trade/craft to start. Add your tradecraft to your name.
Merchant: Much the same as the Craftsmen though better off and of higher standing, your family is in the business of high finance. In addition to the family rolled trade/craft at 4th lvl, you also start with lvl 1 Trader.
Gentry: Of high birth but having no titles or rulership. You family has its own land, but no governance. You might be the illegitimate child of a noble or other vassal of middling birth and rank. You start with First Aid, Read Magic, and Knockout. You family is likely to let you choose your own course in life, though your rank may keep you from acting as freely as many others. Add “Ser” to your name.
Lesser Noble: Of a house of little power of prestige, your rank is all in name. Your family has the rulership of a small, insignificant piece of land or holdfast. You will have had a good upbringing however, and likely your family will seek in improve their status by wedding you higher up, or through conquest. You will have duties as per the GM. You class has been predetermined by your family and must attain at least 2nd lvl in all of the scholarly trades and crafts (i.e. Art, Diplomacy, Reading/Writing, and Historian) before entering the chosen class. You start with First Aid, Read Magic, Knockout, and one Random Trade Craft that you learned took an interest in as a child. Add “of” and the title of the province to your name.
Noble: As above, but you are of a powerful house. Your family is a major player in regions politics and ruling. You are likely being groomed for rulership yourself and always watched and judged by all around you. You start with two trade crafts at random as well all the first level skills. Add Lord/Lady to your name.
Distant Royalty: Either of Royal blood far from home, or of a house that once held the throne. Your life is likely to be fraught with politics. You requirements are as above though you have had much tutoring and begin with all first level skills, as well as three lvls in random Trade Crafts.
Close Royalty: You are a member of the current royalty of the region, and a member of the royal family, though not necessarily in line to the thrown. Your requirements are as above though you have four random trade/crafts of interest. You will have a great deal of duties and politics to deal with and may be required to be guarded at all times, escorted by family, etc."

Lots of other little fixes here and there, but mostly I wanted people to get to see this.

K then I like limbs resist damage for your ROR or the hack as we have been doing it.

For the Names do we gain titles for our achievements? I'm sure we can say " I am what's his face slayer of that one guy" but are we going to have like The hunter king or The watcher of the world? I guess that leaves us to our own imagination... Right?

Andrews Post: Thanks for the great post Andrew, lets give it some thought. I moved it here where it belongs.

"
I've been browsing over all the possibilities...and they are all good concepts. I wonder however, if we could make Endure a combo of damage cap and armor wound. Since Rangers can wear up to plate, they could make use of heavier armor or not. Perhaps a dmg cap based on AV rather than a shield. Does anyone think that this is too off the wall? At any rate, I believe the Earthbind spell for Nat magi is great."

I think the idea of a combo Armor Wound / Damage cap is very interesting. The idea that you could cap more if you had more armor is nice. I will give it more thought, but I think it is too complex for a first level skill. Body Endure might be good for that, but Endure needs simplicity and grace.

Some other things to consider. Counting to your ROR in combat sucks. Defy Death barely works. I think resist damage for your ROR is going to be way to muddy in combat. Cap on the limbs it too cool, and we have two other classes that have cap, we don't need more or damage become moot. Furthermore, the problem I see with Endure is that it is a reactive call. No other first level skill is reactive. There are only a few in the book (Armor Wound, Dispel Magic, Reflect Magic, etc.) and they tend to be pretty high level. I think that while I like what Endure does as a concept, the fact that it is reactive makes it too hard for newbies to use. If there was a way to make it active, something you want to call, rather than something you hope not to call, would help a lot. Newbie often think they should use thier skills, and in most cases they are right. But if you get hit on the arm for 1, calling Endure is about the dumbest thing you could do! You have to know when to use it, how to use it, and then, how to make the most of it. Too much for a newbie. Some new possibilities follow:

Switch Body Endure and Endure: Body Endure is simpler, then the more complex limb thing can he higher up.
Adrenaline for a Mana: Endure could cost a mana and give your Adrenaline for the encounter. It could be IC so you don't have to use it until you really need to, or you can turn it on before hand if you don't want to forget to. There aren't any mana cost first in a class abilities (Berserk cost to get out only) so that might make for a skill to spend mana on. Yes it becomes useless when you get Adrenaline, but lots of skills upgrade and that gives mages and other class better access to Arenaline.
Make Endure simply, Endurance. You never tire while running, can carry players indefinitly, always escape when pursued or catch those your pursue if they don't have speed, and perhaps can run while carrying people (a very useful skill).
Ditch Endure all togehter: We could put things we like from the monster building section in here- Advanced Smell, who knows?
Aftermath Endure: We could make Endure work like Helms do. If you take over a certain amount of damage, your limb breaks but you survive. There are two ways to run this. One way, you just say "When you would die or go unconscious, you take no damage but must hack a limb instead." This is a forced Endure that keeps you up no matter where you are hit. The other kind is to make Endure something you use after the battle. So you take 10 damage and go down. While down you remember that you have Endure and thus can decide to hack limbs in order to no be dead. We could say that each limb can absorb 4 damage a piece. This is easy to figure out because you are already down and thus have plenty of time to figure out details. You can assign 4 to a leg, 4 an arm, and 2 to your other arm. When you wake up, and limb you assigned damage to is hacked. This does not keep you up, but does keep you alive.

Christopher

Endurance the skill would not be over powered, Rangers like vetrans can be masters at survivability. Snare, avoid etc. Endurance the skill would be handy and its realitively simple. Early on carrying comrades or loot back to town can be hazardous because you must walk and cant run unless you drop what ever your carrying.

Switch Body Endure and Endure: I don't like this. As first in a class being stuck near something big and scary isn't good.
Adrenaline for a Mana: This is cool, but no. I really like this skill for other classes to get, but sucks for rangers. Yeah, it's cool in the begining, but then becomes worthless. We need to make sure that adrenaline works the best with rangers, not everything else.
Make Endure simply, Endurance: I like endurance, but it is an out skill and we shouldn't try to market it as an in.
Ditch Endure all togehter: Like above, they would have to be ins.
Aftermath Endure: I still don't know how I feel about this.

Endure:

Okay, so here are some thoughts I have. Nell, you like the Adrenaline for a Mana, but it sucks for a Ranger. I disagree. Look at skills like Cap AV=0 and Cap Vitals. They upgrade to Vitals Protection and Unbreachability. One could say that the former abilities suck, but actually they are necessary to upgrade to the later skill. The same could be true of Endure. It could upgrade when you get Adrenaline. At that point Adrenaline could simply read, Endure is now passive for you. Thus, you need both if you want to have Adrenaline, and thus the first skill is not sucky at all. The problem I see with it is actually Combat Discipline. With Combat Discipline you could make Endure passive anyway. You could be stationary for five seconds before every encounter to turn on Endure for that Encounter. Thus, the upgrade to Adrenaline would be moot. I think what I like most about the Adrenaline for a Mana is the mechanic of it. As a IC skill that costs a mana, it is almost like a creature Enchantment with Flash. Sure you can play it early so you don't forget, but you can also use it for surprise and also only play it if you need it and save your mana. That mechanic might be the key we are looking for to make Endure work. The question is, what to you get for that mana, it has to be worth it.

On a few other subjects. Endurance is not an OUT. Being able to run while fully loaded is very much an IN Skill, it is just passive. All the other stuff is mostly OUT but it effects IN.

Something else to consider. Combine Endure and Body Endure and you get a simpler mechanic. If I know that no matter where I am hit, I can loose the use of that area to take nothing is easier to explain than limbs only, torso only etc. That might be a good simple solution, though still Reactive. We could then but Endurance up at Body Endure.

Something new I came up with is Endure could be more about the mind. What if Endure read. "You remain awake at -1 mana." Then you could have Endure Elite which would read "You remain awake down to -3 mana and die at -4." This doesn't keep you from going insane, but it does give you Adrenaline for mana loss, where as normally you loose all your skills at -1 mana so this skill could be awesome, especially if it is just passive. A huge tool for mages, they could spend into the negative with much more safety. Yes they will go insane eventually, but they won't drop, which could save their life. Having an extra 2 or 3 Infernos would be worth the risk. Furthermore, Rangers could use this skill. Shatter could be used a great deal more, as could Avoid when you really need it the most. This would effectively give classes more mana, but with the drawback of sending them on the road to insanity if they don't get help soon, so it isn't free mana.

While I like this "Mana Adrenaline" idea very much, I also really like the Enchant Creature with Flash mechanic as well. Both have great potential. What are your thoughts?

Christopher